General Category => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: SIMPLEXUSA on August 17, 2013, 07:24:50 PM
-
Can anyone connect the dots? I need to wire up my bike. any of the diagrams I find on the site are tough to read. what is the copper tab coming off the points? where does it go? take a look a the pics. any help would be great. thanks
-
more pics
-
This isn't extremely clear , but it might help :
(http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=201.0;attach=993;image.jpeg)
-
If you take the flywheel off an old lawnmower motor you'll see a very similar set up. When the magnets pass by the coil, a magnetic field is set up & the "scooped up" electrons have a path to ground thru the points, buffered by the condensor. When the points open, the path is broken & the magnectic field collapes across the primary windings in the coil which creates a spike charge in the secondary widing in the coil which are connected to the plug wires. That copper tab is the link to the coil, condensor, and ground.
Mike Sal
-
PD THE THANKS FOR DIAGRAM. IT MAY HELP. MIKE SAL THANKS FOR THE INFO. STILL NOT CLEAR ON COIL WIRING? YOU SAY THAT STRAP GOES TO THE CONDENSOR TIP? HOW DO THE COILS WIRE UP? HOW DOES IGNITION AND LIGHTS WIRE UP?
-
There was a good photo of a wico coil plate on ebay awhile back #300934893606 it has some good photos to look at.
-
The light coil will have 2 wires. One wire is grounded and the other is connected to the wire that goes out of the magneto for what ever function that particular coil is intended for (head light & tail light). I've not worked on a Wico, so one of the other guys will have to comment on how the wire connects to the rest of the harness going to the lights. (phelon's have 3 separate coils for the lights).
The ignition coil is about the same, but the one wire goes to the points. Think of the points as the "switch" that lets the normal flow of electricity get to ground except when it's time for a spark. When the points open, the interuption in that flow causes the magnetic field to collapse.
Think of the coils being a long wire that's grounded at each end. One one end of the wire there is a switch and a resistor (the light switch and the bulb filament), or just a switch (the points).
Mike Sal
-
Maybe Rick can grab these pics and 'thumbnail' them for the site
Here you go Pete. Rick
-
Those are some good reference photos very clear. ;)
-
Those are some good reference photos very clear. ;)
That's exactly what I thought .
Thanks , Rick .
Pete . :)
-
Hi there, copper strap is for another application ,and connects to the condenser screw that is not grounded . one of the primary ( skinny ) wires of the coil connect there also , along with the " kill " wire ( wire that is to be grounded to stop engine.) other coil primary (skinny ) wire goes to ground . does not matter which one as it is an a.c. magneto word of advice , please do yourself a favor and keep spark plug gaps to a minimum ,,,( suggest .015 making the spark jump long gaps taxes the integrity of the insulation of the magneto coil and these things are hard to find . keep both plug wires hooked up at all times while the motor is turning , as there is no + or - to the system , ( A. C. magneto ) original servicycle points had wire to condenser . Patience pays off with these things , all the best Larry.
-
i still have questions. if the "spark coil" skinny wire goes to the center screw of condenser , where does the other wire from coil go? also are you saying that the condenser will have a connection to that strap? further do I run i wire from my ignition (1 side to ground, the other to the condenser also? ) meaning on the condenser center screw it will include the strap,small coil wire, and ignition ground wire? now that being said what is the situation with the lighting coil? how is it wired?
thanks
-
I think this diagram is correct . If anything is not right , Please let me know and I'll correct it .
I know the manual does 'some' directing for wiring , but a diagram seems to make it easy for me .
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/BasicWicoMagnetoWiringDiagram_zps6852a91b.jpg)
-
Nice pics.
Looking at that set of points, all I can think of is how well an electronic replacement would fit there.
I have worked on countless small engines over the decades, and replacing the points & condenser with a tiny electronic module like the Nova II has been the single best improvement you can make. I have done chainsaws, outboards, 4 strokes, 2 strokes - any single cylinder magneto style ignition.
Engines that sit for months between starts with the points behind the flywheel get a reputation for being hard to start. A thin film of oil or oxide on the points, and it may take 20 pulls to smack the points together enough to get a decent spark. Since the points are hard to get at, they rarely get checked either.
Electronic "points" operate faster, and can't get wet or dirty.
Just my 2 cents as a new guy here.
.
-
Nice pics.
Looking at that set of points, all I can think of is how well an electronic replacement would fit there.
I have worked on countless small engines over the decades, and replacing the points & condenser with a tiny electronic module like the Nova II has been the single best improvement you can make. I have done chainsaws, outboards, 4 strokes, 2 strokes - any single cylinder magneto style ignition.
Engines that sit for months between starts with the points behind the flywheel get a reputation for being hard to start. A thin film of oil or oxide on the points, and it may take 20 pulls to smack the points together enough to get a decent spark. Since the points are hard to get at, they rarely get checked either.
Electronic "points" operate faster, and can't get wet or dirty.
Just my 2 cents as a new guy here.
.
Sounds like you need to put together a little kit!!
-
(https://wnysmallengines.net/images/source/8/8786.jpg)
Product Information
NOVA II • NEW IMPROVED SMALLER SIZE • ABLE TO FIT IN AREAS THAT THE ROTARY #1986 NOVA WOULD NOT • USED IN 4 & 2 CYCLE GASOLINE ENGINES • SUITABLE FOR 2 & 3 LEG IGNITION COILS IN SINGLE CYLINDER ENGINES • NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE ON ENGINES EQUIPPED WITH BATTERY IGNITION OR FLYWHEELS WITH MULTIPLE MAGNETS
Hmmm ...
Still , the idea of electronic ignition is interesting .
-
PD:
The multiple magnet warning comes from the fact that it will fire when the magnets cross the coil. On a 2 stroke with balance magnets like old Echo stuff, this means the plug fires a second time @ bdc. Harmless in those motors. On stuff with 6 sets of magnets used to produce DC power, there will be misfires of course.
The little chinese 2 strokes we use in the bicycles fire every 180 degrees from the factory. I would try one on the simplex engine without a second thought.
B.
-
Here's a pic of my flywheel ( I've since secured the magnet ) . The magnets seem to be 180° apart , so I would think the NOVA II would work . It might just be worth a shot .
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1548.jpg)
Pete . :)
-
So, what we're looking at here is a trigger device? One wire to ground & the other to the coil?
Mike Sal
-
Mike ,
The Nova II is a solid state ignition module that replaces both the points and condenser . It's signal and 'power' are generated by the coil when the magnets pass . The same type of module has been used for over 30 years by Honda and other manufacturers in a lot of motorcycles . My CB750 had a pair of them . They are very reliable and never need attention , other than keeping them fairly clean so heat can dissipate .
Here's the wiring instructions and a link to the same :
(http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/images/novainst.gif)
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/images/novainst.gif
Pete . :)
-
? How would you set the timing?
RC
-
The timing doesn't change. The only way to change or adjust the timing on our bikes is to rotate the coil, relative to the position of the crank. If you've ever been around an old boat motor, you'll notice that part of what happens when you crank the throttle is that the entire magneto plate rotates to advance or retard the spark.
If I had access to a spare simplex motor, and lots of time, I'd like to see if a boatmotor magneto plate & flywheel could be adapted.
Mike Sal
-
If you'd have said something last Winter , Mike . I would have given you the plate I had :
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1562.jpg)
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1563.jpg)
It was even made by RE Phelon . Look by the coil center ...
I don't know if you could make something like that work , but , it would be fun trying .
Pete . :)
-
OK, But the points actually dictate when the plug fires, and a small amount of timing
adjustment can be made by the gap setting.
RC
-
OK, But the points actually dictate when the plug fires, and a small amount of timing
adjustment can be made by the gap setting.
RC
True , when the points open , the plug fires .
That open , which is not adjustable , is controlled by the cam on the crank shaft , NOT the amount that the points open .
-
Yea, I understand that, but, if say you set the points at .025 the point cam would start to open the points a little soner than if set at .015.
-
Yea, I understand that, but, if say you set the points at .025 the point cam would start to open the points a little soner than if set at .015.
I see what you're saying . But , would that be any measurable amount ? And , if so , how much ?
-
Thats a good question, I have never put a degree wheel on any thing to find out.
Maybe I'll do that this winter when I restore my 1955 just to satisfy my curiousity.
-
I hope you do . Kill two birds ... your curiosity and mine . ;)
I don't have my bike with me this Winter or I'd likely do it myself .
Pete . :)
-
The point gap can make a big difference in the timing.
I may be a little dence but I don't see how you adjust the timing with the Nova ll.
The points are elimated so what times the spark?
Gramps
-
Thinking a little more about the timing.
Wouldn't the backing plate have to be movable to adjust the timing?
How many degrees BTDC should it fire?
A dial indicator and degree wheel would be the best way to time it.
The nice thing about it, once done no need to retime it unless you move the backing plate.
I would like to know more about it. Any help to get me on track?
Gramps
-
Your correct that the timing is fixed because the backing plate is fixed. In the gary wollard book he talks about how the Western Union delivery guys would open up the mounting holes so they could advance the timing on the early bikes.
I've not taken the time to actually check what the timing is on a stock simplex. Maybe some of the other guys can report on that.
Mike Sal
-
When I get my engine out and on the bench I will check it and let you know. John
-
I took the motor out of my 1955 today and put a degree wheel on to check
the timing. .014 on the points was 26 degrees BTDC. .018 was 29, .020 was
30 degrees. So now we know. By the way? What are the points supposed
to be set at? I would guess .015
-
Good info! The manual says to set the points to .018 - .020. I wonder if a little more gap would help or hurt. If it was easier to adjust them, I would play around with it. I wonder if Wayne has done any testing on this.
-
Gap is dwell...those amounts will all be in the ballpark
-
On old Harley magnetos the points was set at .015 , I think I will set mine at .016 on the simplex when I put
it back together. These motors are very interesting. When I took apart the motor it very unusual looking. I'm
use to old Harleys and Indians, but this thing is waaaaaay different.
-
Agreed . Good info . Thanks for that . :)
The Phelon magneto plate on my bike has " Point Gap .020" " , or something close to that , as part of the casting .
Pete . :)
-
Agreed . Good info . Thanks for that . :)
The Phelon magneto plate on my bike has " Point Gap .020" " , or something close to that , as part of the casting .
Pete . :)
The Wico mag plate says the same thing.
-
When I checked the point gap in this motor today the points were set at .018 I have no idea who the last person
was that set them but it had to be over 30 years ago. I rebuilt the clutch this past Feb. but we started to get busy
and I stopped. Now I am starting back. This is a strange looking motor, not what I am use to.
-
I think that's part of what happened to all the Simplex motors. Once they had troubles, guys would take them apart to see what they were made of & never got them back together. I know I would have when I was a young guy.....
Mike Sal
-
Has anyone tried this Nova 2 ignition? Sounds really interesting to me, but need someone with more knowlege to perfect the process, so they can give some guidence to those who are mechanically challenged.
-
I have not tried the Nova 2 , but I wouldn't against it . I'll likely give it a shot when I get my bike out of storage . I was having trouble with keeping the motor running for more than about 10 minutes . I'm not sure it isn't due to ignition , but I'm leaning more toward intake as the cause .
Either way , I think the Nova would be an improvement .
Pete . :)
-
How does this nova 2 work? Where does it hook up to? What does it replace? ???
-
Here ya go , Reese .
This is what I wrote on a previous page :
The Nova II is a solid state ignition module that replaces both the points and condenser . It's signal and 'power' are generated by the coil when the magnets pass . The same type of module has been used for over 30 years by Honda and other manufacturers in a lot of motorcycles . My CB750 had a pair of them . They are very reliable and never need attention , other than keeping them fairly clean so heat can dissipate .
Here's the wiring instructions and a link to the same :
(http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/images/novainst.gif)
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/images/novainst.gif
Pete . :)
-
I think I will try them when I reassemble my motors. Why build one when you can build two at twice the cost. 8)
-
Always nice to have a spare . ;)
Pete . :)
-
Pete, can these be mounted on the outside of the engine, or do they have to go behind the flywheel? It would be nice to have access to it w/o removing the flywheel. It's not real clear by the instructions you posted if it has to be protected from weather???
-
Is this it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-ELECTRONIC-TRANSISTORIZED-IGNITION-MODULE-NOVA-II-/250831137647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a66b36b6f
-
The Nova 2 is weatherproof and can be mounted pretty much anywhere as long as it's connected properly .
But , once in service , I doubt it will ever have to be messed with . I would solder and shirk wrap the critical connection , eliminating the possibility of corrosion or loose connection ever becoming a problem . And once the ground has been shined and connected , I'd think about a dab of silicone over it .
"Is this it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-ELECTRONIC-TRANSISTORIZED-IGNITION-MODULE-NOVA-II-/250831137647?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a66b36b6f "
That's ^ the module we're talking about .
Pete . :)
-
My advise is to never use silicon sealer on a soldered connection, unless you can guarantee that you've removed 100% of the solder flux. An ingredient of the silicon that makes it cure (self vulcanizing) doesn't get along with the rosin used as flux & it will attack the joint. I learned this lessen the hard way many years ago.
Mike Sal
-
My advise is to never use silicon sealer on a soldered connection, unless you can guarantee that you've removed 100% of the solder flux. An ingredient of the silicon that makes it cure (self vulcanizing) doesn't get along with the rosin used as flux & it will attack the joint. I learned this lessen the hard way many years ago.
Mike Sal
I agree , Mike .
You'll notice that "I'd think about a dab of silicone over ( it )" the ground connection , which is a screw type connection . It really isn't even needed there unless the normal climate is humid or otherwise detrimental to bare metal .
Pete . :)
-
The bottom line on the Nova II instructions are "Not recommended for use on flywheels with multiple magnets" Are there more magnets in the Simplex mag for the lighting coil? I am thinking ahead for my build.
-
This from earlier in this thread :
author=bohica2xo
"PD:
The multiple magnet warning comes from the fact that it will fire when the magnets cross the coil. On a 2 stroke with balance magnets like old Echo stuff, this means the plug fires a second time @ bdc. Harmless in those motors. On stuff with 6 sets of magnets used to produce DC power, there will be misfires of course.
The little chinese 2 strokes we use in the bicycles fire every 180 degrees from the factory. I would try one on the simplex engine without a second thought.
B."
Pete . :)
-
OK, thanks. Guess I should read the the whole thread before I post.
-
No worries .
Pete . :)
-
Is that nova just the trigger? If so you'll need a cdi and a coil with plug wire. The pics on the eBay link ,I don't see any of that.
A whizzer uses a fairly generic system....a magnet on the outside of the flywheel.. Pickup and a cdi and coil. I know the parts can be had cheap online if you buy from the Chinese bike suppliers(really cheap). Then they sell a test harness for $20 used to test any cdi and stator and voltage regulator, that could easily be used as a complete harness.
,
-
Is that nova just the trigger? If so you'll need a cdi and a coil with plug wire. The pics on the eBay link ,I don't see any of that.
A whizzer uses a fairly generic system....a magnet on the outside of the flywheel.. Pickup and a cdi and coil. I know the parts can be had cheap online if you buy from the Chinese bike suppliers(really cheap). Then they sell a test harness for $20 used to test any cdi and stator and voltage regulator, that could easily be used as a complete harness.
,
Bruce ,
From what I understand , the nova simply replaces the points and condenser .
Simplex has the ignition coil and magnets inside the stator .
Pete . :)
-
I ordered the nova 2 off of ebay last night, you can buy 2 of them for $23, or buy 1 for $13, I just got the one, I'm gonna play with it when I get my parts from Wayne and see if I can makes sparks fly, if it don't work, I still will have the points and condenser from wayne. I would still like to find out how to make it work w/o any ignition from the magneto...I think that is what Bruce is talking about???
-
I ordered the nova 2 off of ebay last night, you can buy 2 of them for $23, or buy 1 for $13, I just got the one, I'm gonna play with it when I get my parts from Wayne and see if I can makes sparks fly, if it don't work, I still will have the points and condenser from wayne. I would still like to find out how to make it work w/o any ignition from the magneto...I think that is what Bruce is talking about???
You still need the coils and flywheels. This is just a trigger, as far as I can see.
-
Ok guys I've got a motor question. If you remove the shaft and are going to take out the bearings how many parts will there be. I find four parts total, one that goes in the main bearing the center comes out easy. The other side there's a metal bushing in front of a bearing that also comes out easy. these bearings look to be in great shape so how do you tell if there bad? ???
-
Reese ,
The bearings in my motor would slightly stiffen when I turned the centers to a certain point . Not a lot , but enough to say the rotation was not smooth all the way around . When I spun the crank , while in the block , I could hear the uneven noise the bearings made . New bearings smoothed everything .
For the cost of new bearings , I think the peace of mind is worth the effort , not to mention you'll know exactly what you have .
Pete . :)
-
I agree with Pete.
Here is where I buy my bearings. Good selection and price is reasonable. They have all the ones you need, from the mains, rod, breaker plate and transmission bearings.
http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/
-
I ordered the nova 2 off of ebay last night, you can buy 2 of them for $23, or buy 1 for $13, I just got the one, I'm gonna play with it when I get my parts from Wayne and see if I can makes sparks fly, if it don't work, I still will have the points and condenser from wayne. I would still like to find out how to make it work w/o any ignition from the magneto...I think that is what Bruce is talking about???
You still need the coils and flywheels. This is just a trigger, as far as I can see.
okay if its a trigger.. id still want it on the outside of the flywheel..dont these buggers crack when on and off alot? a whizzer has a magnet maybe 1/2"x1/2" and it works like theres no tommorow.
-
I ordered the nova 2 off of ebay last night, you can buy 2 of them for $23, or buy 1 for $13, I just got the one, I'm gonna play with it when I get my parts from Wayne and see if I can makes sparks fly, if it don't work, I still will have the points and condenser from wayne. I would still like to find out how to make it work w/o any ignition from the magneto...I think that is what Bruce is talking about???
You still need the coils and flywheels. This is just a trigger, as far as I can see.
okay if its a trigger.. id still want it on the outside of the flywheel..dont these buggers crack when on and off alot? a whizzer has a magnet maybe 1/2"x1/2" and it works like theres no tommorow.
Crack ? Why would they do that ?
They are solid state , housed in a metal cup and capped with some type of heat dispersant goo .
Honda used the same type trigger in bikes of early '80s vintage . Never heard of one cracking , even after 30 years . Some had the goo melt out , but they still worked fine .
Pete . :)
-
Well I ordered two today to try when I put my motors back together again. ::)
-
I meant that the flywheels crack....so I'd want my ignition on the outside
-
Can't say I ever saw a cracked Simplex flywheel , either . I've seen a couple that the hub was not right , but never cracked . They are made pretty hefty . I'm sure it would take a lot more than one of these little Simplex motors to tear one up , unless the wheel was way out of balance .
And , so what if it did crack . It would have to be removed for replacement and very doubtful that any of it would ever touch the Nova .
Pete . :)
-
I hafta be more clearer from the start more! I'd heard the flywheels have a tendacy to split near the key,on the hub center. I figured repeated pulls of the old parts could be risky...that's all. Never thought what's inside could be damaged.
-
I hafta be more clearer from the start more! I'd heard the flywheels have a tendacy to split near the key,on the hub center. I figured repeated pulls of the old parts could be risky...that's all. Never thought what's inside could be damaged.
IMHO, the flywheels simplex used probably would never have a problem IF the people who worked on them knew what they were doing! Using the tool simplex included in the early years or using the pinion gear as the tool. the flywheel comes right off without any drama.
-
What does the tool to remove the flywheel look like? Is it something that can be made pretty easy?
-
What does the tool to remove the flywheel look like? Is it something that can be made pretty easy?
It is just a flat disc of steel with holes for the flywheel pinion studs. You can just use the pinion gear itself.
Here is the procedure:
1: remove pinion gear
2: loosen flywheel nut until it is flush with end of crank
3: reinstall pinion gear, and slowly tighten the nuts, turning each one about 1 turn at a time until the flywheel pops loose
4: remove the pinion gear
5: remove the flywheel nut the rest of the way
6: remove the flywheel
-
Mounted the Nova 2 ignition the other day. I ordered the coils, points,and condenser from Wayne, and got everything mounted and tucked in behind the flywheel, and couldn't get it to fire for nothing. Ran the coil wire outside of the mag plate and hooked up the nova 2, and it fired right now. I haven't put gas in it and tried to start it, but if the timing is right and it starts up, I think I'm gonna bypass points and condenser all together.
-
" I think I'm gonna bypass points and condenser all together."
That's what the Nova 2 does , exactly .
Pete . :)
-
Well got my parts in the other day but its been too cold here to work on anything. I do have one cylinder that has to go back to Wayne due to some damage so only one engine build this week.
This in my Nova II install before I got the flywheel back on. I hope it works? ???
-
I bought two of the Novas on eBay. Hope to learn from your success.
But it will be a while before I get to that stage.
Let us know how you set the timing.
-
Reese ,
Did you install the cam and spring before you put the flywheel back on ?
I see the spring still on the shaft in that last pic .
Pete . :)
-
Pd the answer would be no that spring and points cam are not on my motor any longer. There is a spring there but a new spring to keep the bearing in place. Just got it somewhat back together walked it to the frame. Three bolts and a fuel line later with a dozen or so kicks and She lives again. Now to wait to Sunday to finish putting her back together. I would stay today and do it but I've got a hot date with the wife I need to clean up for. Huba huba. ;D
-
"There is a spring there but a new spring to keep the bearing in place."
That's the part I was wondering about : keeping things where they should be .
A late Valentine's ... Have fun . My wife bought home a box of chocolates . ;)
Pete . :)
-
Hello, Is a capacitor reading of 198.0 on a meter mean the condenser is good or bad. Thank you
-
Hello, Is a capacitor reading of 198.0 on a meter mean the condenser is good or bad. Thank you
Testing a capacitor is actually a two step procedure .
Here's a short video to help explain :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxD1OpPQaS0
Pete . :)
-
Thank you, that was a helpful video.
-
8)