General Category => Simplexes with Non-Original Engines => Topic started by: Sonrisers on August 14, 2014, 04:41:54 PM
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Got my mounting plate, clutch, jack shaft and bearings from Wayne tonight. Looks like it is gonna be pretty simple to assemble. That's the way I like it! I am spray painting the plate tonight, and hope to start mounting things tomorrow after work. Wayne said I will have to do some tweaking on the exhaust and breather, but I am planning on making another exhaust and getting a different breather eventually. I am hoping I can put everything together and get it running and then work on it more this winter.
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Get cracking! When is the next parade for kettle corn?
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Post pics along the way . Please . ;)
Pete . :)
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I'm doing a plate for standing one up with a tav soon...I noticed men's sportsman has around 5\8" more room...matters with a 212
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Hey Bruce, what happened? We didn't see you at Portland.
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I had to meet a Realtor on the weekend and couldn't really break free. I really wanted to go too but next year I'll be living there so shouldn't be a problem. I seen all the neat pics....nice
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Got the motor in and clutch on. Some things w/ Wayne's conversion parts...brake linkage is gonna have to be altered to make it fit right, It hits one of the motor mount bolts, I can get it hooked up, but it drags and don't let the pedal return, not a biggy. The plate didn't line up just right, but I was able to jockey it around and get bolts in the holes and then tighten them up and seems to be good now. The stock breather and muffler from the predator motor isn't gonna work. Wayne told me some of the breather housing plastic could be cut to make it fit right, but I don't see any way it can be altered to fit. I may have motor too far back, but I wasn't planning on using stock breather any way. After market breather from omb warehouse $26...got it on the way. Wayne also told me the stock exhaust would have to be bent out to fit in the frame. This is also true, but I am gonna make my own any way. The clutch went together and mounted up great...really easy. May need to make some more adjustments, but for now I have fired motor up and had rear wheel spinning. Another thing, the stock throttle grip only throttles the motor to about half throttle, so I am prob gonna have to buy a different throttle control, I was hoping that I could use the stock one, but it don't look possible unless I can get some more travel from it. Not complaining about any of the parts or process, just wanting to let others know what they may run into if they plan on doing the same thing. All in all it has been very easy so far, and I would recommend this kit to anyone. Also looks pretty good. Haven't got the kicker yet, but Wayne called and said it is on the way, so everything is gonna have to come back off to get it mounted.
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Move the connection point for the throttle cable closer to the pivot, this will decrease the amount of travel needed to open the throttle all the way.
As for the brake issue, do you have a clevis up front? If so, maybe a new brake rod with a 90 degree bend either incise or outside the bolt might work.
Post some pictures so we can see it!
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The brake rod I have already has a 90 deg bend in it, and only has enough room to slide in one way. I was hoping I could just turn it around and slide it in from the other side, but not enough room. Prob gonna have to rig up a clevis of some sort. The rod is also too long now with the new set up, there isn't enough adjustment to engage the brake, as the rear wheel is closer to the motor now with the new belt. I might have to make a whole new rod the right length. Took it to my father inlaw's shop today and plan on tinkering with it on tues. I'll try o get some pictures then.
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The earlier bikes used a clevis on both ends. This would be easy to add. Just cut rod to the proper length and thread the end. This will probably buy you the room you need.
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I was thinking something along those lines, I'll let you know how it goes. If I move the conduit for the throttle cable closer I still don't think it will have enough travel to throttle the motor all the way.
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Look at throttle plate and you will see a throttle stop screw that makes contact with a vertical tab. Move the screw outward to allow the throttle to open up more. Most engines are set from factory at about 1/2 to 3/4 max throttle.
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Got the exhaust made and mounted, still needs paint, but you can still get the idea. The inner pipe is 3/4 conduit and the outer pipe is a chain link fence post. The outer pipe will serve as a heat shield and muffler threads on to the conduit. The muffle and heat shield will be able to be removed. Still need some brackets for support....any suggestions as to what I should use?
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Looks good.
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James, how about an update and show the kick start installed!
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Ya! What he said
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Kick starter was easy to install. Wayne sent it to me after I had already mounted the motor. I just took the bolts out and slid the plate between the motor and mounting plate, put the bolts back in , screwed the pinion gear on the shaft , kicked it once and it fired right up. I took the pull rope mechanism out and cut the bottom of the pull rope housing enough to let the kicker pass by. I did have to weld a tab on the foot board bracket as a stop to keep the kicker from returning too far and getting caught, but I think my frame is missing the original tab that serves that purpose. Wayne's kit has a plate with a stubb shaft the kicker mounts to. The plate just has 4 holes that line up with the motor mounting holes. I have the bike in another town at my in laws shop, and I keep forgetting to take pictures, I will try to remember to post some the next time I'm up there. I would recommend the kicker to anyone....very easy.
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I just picked up my 52 Simplex and want to run an aftermarket engine set up. Any information or recommendations any of you can provide will be greatly appreciated (Pics don't hurt either).
THANKS!
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What are your abilities? Wayne makes a great bolt in kit for a gx200 or clone. If you want to do more work, but have a more convincing replica, search here for Honda GC conversions.
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James, Have you been out for a putt with the new set-up yet? When do we get pictures?!
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James, Have you been out for a putt with the new set-up yet? When do we get pictures?!
Yeah, what Tom said!
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Not even close. I'm still buying pieces here and there. i'm gonna go with the HF212 predator and probably a torq a verter. the jack shaft set up is quite a bit more than i wanted to spend. adding Waynes kick start for it too. i'm trying to get her back on the road and building my wifes 1948 safti cycle too. all that on top of a wife who is 36 weeks pregnant and living in hellish so cal... can't wait to retire and get out of this hellhole.
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sonrisers, can you upload a pic of what your motor setup looks like with the kick start?
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Just took some pictures, I will have to upload them w/ my wife's computer, and she is on it right now. Will get right on it when she is done. Some issues I am having with the kicker...When I first put it on, it worked perfectly, and after kicking it a few times, it seems to be "slipping" thru when I kick it. It still starts fine, but it is chewing up the pinion gear a little. I don't see any way of adjusting it. The kicker plate has 4 bolt holes and they line up exactly with the holes in the motor, and the shaft that the kicker mounts on is welded right to that plate. Another issue I am having is there is some slipping of the belt when I get on it from a stand still. I think I can move the jack shaft back a little and take care of that problem though. I have a call into Wayne, and I hope he can shed some light on both issues.All in all, I am much happier with the conversion than I was with the original set up. The torque converter works a lot better, (even with the belt slipping) than the original set up. The hf motor starts with 11 kick every time...and I mean every time. Pics to come.
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Here are the pics. :o
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Which belt is slipping? If it's the Clutch and driven belt, it's critical to have them adjusted properly. If using belt #203593 with 6" driven clutch, the C to C of clutch mounting bolts have to be 8 11/16" to 8'3/4". Closer than that and the belt will slip until higher rpms close the drive clutch quite a bit. If the rear drive belt to the tires the culprit, move the tire back. Side note: I chose to "anchor my jackshaft" in place and slotted the engine mounting holes in order to move engine forward to adjust clutch belt, and made rear wheel adjusters in order to move rear wheel back to tension drive belt.
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When using the kickstart, engage the gears first, then "push" the kicker through. If you just kick it, without prior engagement, you will hammer the pinion gear with every kick.
With the clone motor I had, and I also noticed when I rode Wayne's bike, you need to choke these motors to start them, even when hot. I am of the opinion that the carburetors for these motors are set up so lean for the EPA. Next one I do, I will look into enriching the carb.
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Sonrisers, where did you get the seat covered? I just got done cleaning and painting my seat pan.
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James, I see something in the second photo you posted. The kicker gear is still in the return layback position and it should look like the first one. You mite want to check that it ir returning all the time. But it is looking pretty good thou. 8)
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Heathers leathers for seats... I think I paid $225, that's where everybody on here told me to go, they do really good work. As far as engaging the gears rick, I have started doing that now...but I got in the bad habit of just letting it fly when I was kicking the other motor b/c it was so hard to start. Wayne called me back and confirmed that there is no adjustment. He said he may have sent me a pinion gear that wasn't properly heat treated, said if keeps acting up he will send me another one.
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Carryall, Wayne also told me to make sure the jack shaft was set at 8 5/8 "
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Check your paperwork on measurement but pretty sure it's 8-11/16 to 8-3/4" when belt is new. You can also check it with clutch face off and belt squeezed down around brass sleeve. Should be just enough clearance/space (1/8") to allow free spinning. (Also explained in Comet paperwork) Rick...you are correct in observing the lean condition of the HF carbs. (both types) I swapped out jets to a .035 (richer) and replaced the emulsion tube with a gx140 (also richer) A MUST DO when anyone puts on free flowing air filter and exhaust. It really helped with idle, power and speed. Oddly enough tho, even after that, I still need to "half choke" for hot starts. Always "pops off" first try either way. Just a quirk with these engines I guess.
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does anybody have pics of the HF212 predator with Waynes jackshaft set up? I got my shipment in of the kick start, jack shaft and engine adapter plate... i just wanna see how it all links up.
thanks
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Did you look back a page sonrisers has a few photos.
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I don't have any close ups yet, and have to leave now, I'll try to get some better pics when I get time. As far as the set up of everything, mounting plate first, then kicker plate on top of that, then motor bolts to those. Jack shaft is just the pulley and bearings, mount those and wait til belts and clutch are mounted, get everything lined up and then tighten the set screws. The torque converter is simple, read instructions that came with, or just put it together like a puzzle. I had to bend my brake linkage rod so it would clear one of the motor mounting bolts, If using the factory hf muffler, you will have to do some tweaking as well as the factory air breather to get motor in frame. I used an aftermarket air cleaner and built my own exhaust, using the flange I cut off of the muffler. Keep us posted on how things are going.
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here's a close up of clutch side set-up. You'll have to wait for kick-start side as I'm currently waiting to modifying one of Waynes before I install it.
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carryall, that shroud you have mounted on front of the motor protecting the pulley is awesome! is that something that you made?
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Make me one while you're at it.lol
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The jackshaft bar that Wayne sent is very long. it sticks out the side a lot. Is this something that can be trimmed down so it doesn't stick out so far? I don't want to compromise the integrity or balance of the shaft.....
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shouldn't need any trimming. After you have the driven clutch aligned to the engine's clutch, the shaft will only extend approx. 3/8" to 3/4" past the carrier bearing "cage" on the other (recoil) side.
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Carryall....I'm curious what speeds that bike runs with the governed small stock carb? Does it hop up on the governor right away?
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Social, cut what you want just be sure to re dress the end smooth again. My shaft will be about a inch or better than the shaft thay was on the comet clutch.
Yea I think someone need to do a little gutting on a governor.
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I can get about 45-50mph "top-speed" with the governor set-up I have running. I moved the linkage to another hole on the arm to allow it a bit more than the original and messed with the spring. The carb has been re-jetted (.035) and also has the 140 E-tube along with the A/F and exhaust being completely opened up. I changed it to run a 4.25" secondary pulley and the #2 setting on driven clutch. (works great at my weight and the relatively flat roads here) Gutting the governor is just running down the rabbit hole in my experience...My first engine I had removed the governor but the engine started knocking after less than 100 miles, so I exchanged it for another HF212, and left the governor in this one. No plans,( or need) to remove it considering it runs/drives as good as the first engine did except the "top end" ability. (which is WAY FASTER than an original either way) I figure... why go thru the trouble of pulling a governor, which then involves the cost of adding an aluminium flywheel, which leads to the need to update/install the better valve springs (18lbs.) to prevent valve float, and then needing to buy a pulse carb to feed it, all that trouble/cost/labor for a $100 engine in order to get another 10mph faster, so I can tear it up sooner? I figured, If I want to go fast, I'll drive my Kawasaki ZR7. Not to mention, I have less than a grand into it, and want to keep it that way for awhile.
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Finally some good data I can use. Was that 18lbs springs that was in it already or did you up it to 18lbs. springs? Enquiring minds want to know.
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You'll need to buy the 18lbs. springs. (cheap, around $10/set) because the stock ones will float over 4000rpm. If a person wants to do the "race upgrade", I'd recommend installing a different cam at the same time you pull the governor as long as it's open? Some bigger cams you will need to dremel clearance, some mild cams you don't.
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BTW SoCal, here's a pic of jackshaft extension. Approx. 1/2" from bearing cage. Also shown is my work "in progress" to move the kick starter in as close as possible to the flywheel for both strength, and asthetical purposes. In order to do it tho, I needed to cut/trim down shroud, fan vanes, and starter cup. I'll be doing a little welding to cover some of the gap created, and may replace the foot peg with a fold-up peg also. We'll see?
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Here's a pic of the "fill-in" of the gaps from trimming the shroud to facilitate the kick starter being as close as possible to the flywheel. (unpainted and painted) in case someone else is considering this "add-on" in the future...I didn't have correct gauge material, so made due with some 16ga. Just need to make a spacer for kick start shaft, and a couple small spacers for the recoil cover to cover up fan. (minus rope 'n handle of course) and waiting for the fold up peg to replace solid foot peg.
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Looks good , so far .
Will the recoil cover be left full circle ? I would think so , but ???
Pete . :)
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yep, but I may need to paint it again if the emblem doesn't come off easily. LOL. The beauty of it being inset is that it leaves the round cover "in-tact". I figured it should make fit up of the gears better, and with a closer tolerance and produce less "wear'n tear' on the teeth. I think that just a dab of grease on the teeth will help too.
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You might consider a sray on dry moly based lube , instead of grease . A lot cleaner , lasts and won't attract / hold dirt .
(http://d2pbmlo3fglvvr.cloudfront.net/product/full/12U395_AS01.JPG)
Pete . :)
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Great idea. I can use the same moly lube that I use on the inside face of the Comet clutch. It doesn't hold/attract contaminants. Glad someone is thinking. Thanks.
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Yer excused . It was late and maybe you were tired ? ;)
Pete . :)
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50/hr+ weeks doing HUGE staircases for the new "Vikings stadium" and 13 inches of snow this week hasn't helped. All the welding has to be ultra-sonically inspected/certified, and I'm the only currently certified welder "in-shop" hasn't helped my concentration lately. Working on the sheetmetal shroud felt like "playschool" welding. LOL
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We have to have those 'easy moments' in order to know the harder ones . :D
Pete . :)
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I'm now considering our other forum members idea of a copper cover, or even the "ever popular idea" of a stainless steel bowl for a cover...Any one have thoughts, or opinions on what would look good on it, and "go with" the green/black paint scheme?
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Carryall, just as long as it's not steel because it will screw with your magnets. Stanless, copper, or aluminum are the ones to look at.
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I'll consider that, thanks. Maybe a combo of the materials? Got plenty of time to "dink with it" considering Winter here in MN can last quite awhile...that, and I have another bike project that's going to need some effort put into it also. I'll post a pic of the foot peg mod. if I end up doing it also.
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You might even take a look at plastic for a cover material .
I know it kinda goes against the grain , but ...
Pete . :)
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I always wanted to turn a cover out of walnut, but on the original motor I had it would have had to be turned down way to thin to fit. With this new motor I may be able to make something like that work if I incorporated it in with the original shroud.
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Definitely post pics of that ^ when you start and finish it .
Interesting , at the very least .
Pete . :)
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Finally finished up the kick starter modification. Took time to "beef up" a fold up peg mounting point and had to figure a way to adjust where I wanted the kicker to rest. (and prevent metal to metal contact/rattles) It engages rock solid, and blends in nicely I think.
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Looks great and it even works ? ;)
Pete . :)
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I did notice while testing it out, I was able to re-start the engine without choking it after it was warmed up, unlike before when using the recoil rope. My guess is that the kicker spins it faster, possibly pulling up fuel into carb better, and/or producing a better spark. It "kicks over" and starts with very little effort, except on occasion when it engages right at the compression stroke. Then it's almost like starting a real motorcycle. LOL
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Looking pretty good thete. I like the wings for the center cap. Y'all are making me feel like a slacker now. I meed to get cranking on mine soon and getting it done. :-\
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Looks great Paul. What was the reason for moving kicker in closer? Just for looks, or does it make it work better. I just cut the bottom of the pull rope housing out enough so the kicker could engage. It worked out great the first few times I started it, but then it started stripping through when I kicked it. The pinion gear is starting to get chewed up now. Wayne said he may have sent me one that wasn't heat treated, but I wonder if it would work better if it were moved in closer to the motor like yours. Have you ever considered going to Portland? My wife and I have went the last 2 years and it has been a blast. I would love to get a look at your bike in person. I have been downloading the pics you post in my computer, I now have more pics of your bike than mine. lol
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I figured locating the kicker as close as possible to the flywheel would allow minimum tolerances for flex between the kicker gear mounting plate, and the engine. It also will negate/minimize any misalignment and adds strength with the applied leverage. Before assembly, I thought about welding a gusset on each side of the 3/4" pivot point, and adding reinforcing to the kicker lever itself but I can do that later if warranted. Without seeing your bike, I'd just be guessing but, I wonder if "tipping" your engine/crank gear downward, towards the pivot point (kicker gear) would help? You could accomplish this by adding a washer (or 2) under the engine using the 2 mounting bolts on the clutch side. See crude drawing LOL...
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Makes sense, I may try that....you never answered me about Portland though...would like to meet you and chew the fat.
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Going to Portland would be nice but, unfortunately, due to finances and obligations to family, (and minimal vacation time from work), I don't foresee it... but ya never know. I appreciate the invite very much though...
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It's still a long time before then. I think you may be on to something with the drawing above. I thought the motor may have been twisted, but never thought about tilting it.
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Just guessing the reason it's "stripping" thru the gear on the crank is, that it's not engaging fully. Too much "space/distance" between. Possible that the 3/4" shaft is tilted downward (possibly when welded) or a broken weld?
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James remember to engage the gear before kicking. If you just kick it, it will beat up the pinion and sector gears unnecessarily.
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I decided against making a chrome/stainless steel cover and decided I prefer the look of my painted cover but, I did find a solution for those who'd like a stainless, or chrome cover for their bike. A easy adapted horn cover for Peterbuilt, Mack, etc., would work nicely and include mounting points/tabs for simple adaptation. One seller on E-Bay is Truxmart, among others...they come in sizes ranging from 6" up to 7.5"