General Category => Simplex Trucks => Topic started by: Ricks on February 24, 2011, 04:35:02 PM
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Has anyone ever rode a Servi-cycle 3 wheeler? If so, how stable was it? Do you think one could be ridden safely at around 40 MPH? I'm really thinking of doing a 3 wheeler tribute, but with a briggs or such 4 stroke motor. I envision something I could ride down to the store, throw a couple of things in the box, and make it home without any theatrics.
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I have two three-wheelers (or trucks as they are referred to). The later models are easier to drive than the early models. The early model I have doesn't have a split shaft for the final drive which means both wheels turn at the same rate. When going around a corner it drives a bit like a tank. The later models don't experience that as both wheels are able to rotate at different speeds. Top speeds on the trucks are about 35 m.p.h. or so and it feels stable at that speed. I am sure with a different engine it would still feel safe up to 45 m.p.h. or so.
Bill
www.servicycle.com
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Bill, could you post a picture of the differential? Do you happen to know who the maker of the diff was or did simplex build their own? I know that some of the early trucks used a salsbury torque converter, maybe they also built the diff? Thanks, Rick
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Well, I've started on it. Here is the bike as I bought it, not including the engine, as it was already sold.
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I have sandblasted the chassis and am getting ready to cut for the rear box section. I don't have any exact specs to work from, just pictures.
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This is how I intend to notch the tubes. I've never used my notcher freehand , always in a drill press, but it looks like it should work just fine.
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Rick, That is looking really good. I like the way you have everything balanced and leveled. Have you been able to get any hard measurements yet or are you going to wing it? What have you decided to do about a differential? Are you going to use belts throuout or any chains? If you don't have any measurements perhaps Bill might give you the rough dimensions or Wayne. I really want to see your progress on the bike.
My bike is still sitting in the kitchen :-[ Hopefully I will be able to get it in the shop over the weekend.
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Rick, That is looking really good. I like the way you have everything balanced and leveled. Have you been able to get any hard measurements yet or are you going to wing it? What have you decided to do about a differential? Are you going to use belts throuout or any chains? If you don't have any measurements perhaps Bill might give you the rough dimensions or Wayne. I really want to see your progress on the bike.
My bike is still sitting in the kitchen :-[ Hopefully I will be able to get it in the shop over the weekend.
I PMed Bill, I asked him if he could get some measurements and post them here so everyone can see. I do know the dimensions of the box, so the rest I estimated. I would like to see how close I am.
I have not decide on a differential yet. I can get a kart chain drive diff, but I can't find one that works with a belt drive. If I decide to go without a diff and just use a jackshaft like the early models, then I will go all belts.
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My friend Augie and I bent some tube yesterday, and this morning I mocked up the lower hoop and tacked it in.
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Rick, what size pipe are you using and what is your source of supply?
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Bob, I used 1" x .083" DOM that I got from Fleischer Tube, a local company. The place isn't cheap, but I wanted to get a 16' section so I could bend the bottom rectangle from 1 piece.
Simplex used 1" x .065" ESW, but I wanted a little more strength, and I wasn't much concerned about the extra weight.
If you need tube in 8' sections, you can mail order it much cheaper, and it ships UPS. If over 8', it is freight shipped. I called a couple of places and to have 48' of tube shipped in 8' sections was around $30, but in 16' sections around $275!
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Did some more work. I have the rear section tacked in now. Next up will be fabricating the pieces to hold the inside of the axles.
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Some more work done this morning.
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I now have the frame all tacked together and have the wheel mounts in. If anyone has a rear wheel assembly they would like to part with, give me a shout as I only have one rear wheel at the moment.
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Rick, That is definately 1st class all the way. I'm really looking forward to seeing this build to the end. No rear wheel assy here. Sounds like you may be talking to Wayne again :)
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I've ordered so much stuff from Wayne, I should just put him on speed dial! I'm also on the lookout for a gas tank for this project.
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Wow, you are spending some money. I recently saw a gas tank on Ebay, but it went out high.
Let me ask you a question about welding the frame. I have seen, on other forums, where the guys have raved about brazing the frame rather than arc welding. However, it would appear that the tolerances have to be very tight for brazing to work. I see you are mig/arc welding your joints.
According to what I have gathered from the other guys this type of welding weakens the frame, but I would think that the heat generated to braze the joints would weaken it also if this were the case. Also, I can't see how a brazed joint would be stronger than a weld.
What do you think of these arguments one way or the other?
What are your thoughts on this?
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I have not brazed anything since high school, about 25 years ago. I don't see any problem with MIG welding. If it was a problem, they would not weld race cars. IMO, a weld is much stronger than a braze. When I was first teaching myself to MIG years ago, I tested some of my welds and had to destroy the piece and the weld did not fail. The key is to get good penetration.
Here is a chassis I welded in my old drag car that I felt comfortable in @ 130mph.
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Nice work...Had to sighn on to follow it! Did you ever get info on the diff?
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I actually have a reproduction 3 wheeler manual that show all the parts for the axles, but nothing is available as far as I could find. I'm going to go with a straight axle like on the early models. Bill did send me some pictures of the pulley arrangement and such, and it should be pretty easy to replicate.
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Nice work...Had to sighn on to follow it! Did you ever get info on the diff?
Chainmaker, I thought you might be interested in this.
When out in Portland a guy had 2 simplex trucks that were missing there original drive axles. He did 2 different things on each bike. One he put a kart differential in by machining a pulley to bolt to the differential where it would normally have had a chain sproket( Picture 1). On the other, he put comet style torque converters on the outside of a solid shaft, when the drive shaft comes up to speed, the pulley halves move closer together, which causes the belt to ride higher in the pulley, which drives the bike. When you let off the throttle, the belt drops into the pulley and causes slack, which allowes the 3 wheeler to turn freewheel(Picture 2). It was a pretty neat setup and I watched both run without a problem.
After thinking about how the stock setup works, I'm going to try a third way. I'm going to use a solid shaft to comet style clutches on each end, the type that usually go on minibike engines. These will give me freewheeling action when not under load and that is what Simplex did on their later model trucks. As a matter of fact, their outside clutches are the same as used on there automatic drive! Including the use of the same brake shoes used on the front and rear brakes! I find it very clever their reuse of parts in different applications(Picture 3).
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I dont know if this would help but I found these during a search http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_35768_35768
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That's exactly what is in the orange and blue truck from the first picture. These are readily available, and are a great option when using a stock motor. With the honda motor I'm using, I will need to offset the pulley to one side, therefore I'm going to use the maxtorque clutches on the outshafts.
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Well, since I have finished up my 53 automatic, it is time to get back on the truck. I have installed the mounts for the drive shaft and have the drive shaft mocked up. I am going to go with belt drive clutches on either side of the drive shaft. These should allow for free wheeling when not under power and allow the truck to turn. After looking at Bob Legron's stock truck, Simplex used this arrangement, just with their own parts.
1st picture Bob's clutch,2nd max torque pulley clutch. Anyone see a problem with this?
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Here is the drive shaft mounts tacked in. Turns nice and smooth!
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I picked up a Comet CVT and am going to run it directly to the drive shaft. With the clutches on the outboard ends, I hope to have some differential action.
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I laced up the wheels.
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Wheels and brakes test fitted.
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I really love your three wheeler project. I have been studying all your pics. Very nicely done. I have been wanting to do a custom two wheeler with a Briggs. I have a passion for the Briggs and once drew up plans to convert a 5hp horizontal shaft to an overhead valve arrangement. Swapmeet in my town is coming in May. Who knows what I will see. It's a bit of everything but mostly car stuff but last year I missed a rolling chassis Simplex that sold for $50. Uggg! Wife always says I don't need another project. Lucky for me I've worked in shops my whole life and I am a bit hard of hearing!
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Belt sheaves mounted and custom pulley clutches with roller bearings test fit. I'm waiting on some belts to line up the clutches and to make some idler pulleys.
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First time ive seen this build looks great!
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Thanks. I just got off the phone with Wayne and have some idler pulleys and axles coming. I just about have the drive system worked out. I hope to have it running in time for the VMBC in Portland this summer. This should be real ridable.
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Don't know if this is of any use to you guys thinking about alternate trannys & clutches, but here's something from our horseless carriage reproductions group site:
Hello Gentlemen.
I came across this today and I thought some of you may be interested. It a new
clutch available at northern tool. What caught my attention is it as a A/B
pulley instead of a sprocket and the engagement rpm is 1800 instead of the
2300-2400 in the sprocket drive clutches. This may be the awser to those who
wanted to run a centrifugal clutch, but do not want to full rev. I originally
was going to use a idler clutch on the shine runner, but I ordered one of these
since my idle on my engine is 1700 rpm. Northern has these in their latest
catalog however I couldn't find them on their website. Amazon has them
available, though Northern, on their website. Here is the link.
http://www.amazon.com/Hilliard-Extreme-Duty-Clutch-Pulley-D/dp/B00372RU56/ref=sr\
_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330381243&sr=8-1
Take care.
Brian
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That is pretty much what I am running on my 3 wheel truck, except the ones I have are made by Max-Torque. What I like about max-torque is they are a small, family business, that is interested in helping their customers. When I called, they wanted to know about my project, and they wanted to help me pick out the best engagement springs for my application. After I placed my order, they put the clutches together and shipped them the next day!
Rick
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Rick, that thing is coming out great! Im just catching up on all the threads and was checking this one out- WOW! I dig it, this is a great project I'd love to try sometime.
BTW- Did I read you were involved in racing VW's? I used to do a bit of that myself. I don'tknow how long you have been doing it but I used to work at SCS, Small Car Specialties in Anaheim, CA, 20 years ago! I also worked a bit at FAT performance. I knew a few of the guys at Gene Berg and had a Berg/FAT 2276 in my last bug. (57 ragtop)
I plan to do another bug soon. All stock oval window with a monster 2 litre with dual 48's... I LOVE the way 48's sound! My oval sounded great, straight cuts, monster heads with Berg triple Chevy springs, 12:1 compression, FK89 cam, was an awesome motor. I want to do something like it but this time in a stock looking oval.
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Yes, I was involved in the VW scene for 25 years. I got burned out with the travel to the dragstrips after my local one closed and started on a pro street low light ghia. I got the car about 75% done, lost interest and it just sat for several years. When a guy in the UK made me a really nice offer for it, I let it go.
Rick
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I converted the Ghia to 002 bus trans with berg nosecone, narrowed rear IRS 1 5/8 each side, narrowed 5" front beam, front disc brakes. My plan was EFI turbo motor, of which I still have most of the parts to build, including wedgemated crank, and CNC heads, ect. The guy in the UK finished the car and ran a 12.9 with a 2276 normally aspirated motor the first pass out! And that is with a trans that is geared for a turbo street motor with really tall gearing!
The last picture above is right before it left my driveway, and the others below are it now.
Rick
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Really beautiful Rick! :o
I love that engine compartment... nothing beats black tins and 48's! That is a great color.
I want to do a street bug much like that, stock color and chrome with stock wheels, slight rake to bring the front end down but with a killer motor.
I never got much into turbos, helped a buddy put one on his 68 ghia in high school. They are a pain. I just love 48's!
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I built some brackets and arms for the belt idler pulleys today. I am waiting on the pulleys from Wayne, should be here today or tomorrow. I turned some spacers for the idler pulleys on my lathe, just have to determine how long they need to be. Man, I really want to get this ridable!
Rick
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I got the pulleys and finished mocking up the installation. I'll stop by the hardware store today and pick up some stronger springs. The spring in there now is just for mockup. I just have to weld everything and the drive system should be a go.
I also installed new axles I got from Wayne. The old ones were really worn on the threads. They are also threaded with what I believe to be a 7/16 - 26 thread. Any idea where I can get a tap and die in this size?
Next up will be exhaust and tires. With the price of the coker simplex tires going through the roof, I wish there was an alternative. Anyone have any ideas? I know that there are all sorts of bicycle tires to choose from, but I'm not sure I want to go 45 mph on a bike tire.
Rick
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Do you really think you'll be going 45 on the trike? I built a trike bicycle back when I was a kid & it was kinda squirrelly at speed (of course, who knows how badly it was engineered by my 14 year old brain).
Mike Sal
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Sure, why not? As Bill E said earlier, his truck goes 35 mph and is stable, he thought 45 shouldn't be a problem. Guy's ride harley servi-cars at 60 plus!
Rick
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Rick, Did you see your tap and die at the Britishfasteners site? A bit pricey but looked like they have them.
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Yes, I did. I want to make sure that is the thread size before I spring for them.
Rick
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Got the brake system redone. The way I first did it, it had way too much play in it and I wasn't happy. Now I made a cross tube, bushed it, and installed a 1/2" steel rod it it. Nice and solid. I also made up some brake rods and a pivot to pass the brake rod under the new honda engine. I even used the kickstart pedal shaft as the pivot point. I just need to pick up another bushing for it.
Rick
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That bellcrank is pretty spiffy. Is your wheelbase the same as original, or did you stretch it a little?
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That bellcrank is pretty spiffy. Is your wheelbase the same as original, or did you stretch it a little?
I'm not sure as I had no exact specs to go by. I did know the dimensions of an early wood box 3 wheel truck, so I guestimated off that. I'd bet I'm within an inch or two.
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I bought a set of cheap bicycle cruiser tires so I can get it rolling. I'm not that happy with the wheels, they are not the straightest. I'm on the look out for 3 2" wide wheels, but they will work for now.
I ordered a minibike exhaust and some additional tubing and bends so I can build the exhaust. My plan is to come up and to the rear, down the middle of the valve cover, the turn 90 degrees towards the ground, then another 90 out the back under the box. Hopefully this works without too much trouble.
Rick
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what are 2 inch rims worth these days? Is that one on ebay right now too rough? He wants a lot for postage, but if a guy got it for opening bid & the pulley is useable, it amounts to 50 bucks a piece (the hub is really really rough).
Mike Sal
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I don't really know what the going rate is, as I have not seen many for sale. I think the Wollards probably have a bunch, but getting straight ones is the problem. As Wayne once told me, they all look good laying in a pile.
Rick
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Hello , all the good work is taking shape, My suggestion ( for what it's worth ) is to press on and don't worry about the wheels until the thing goes so fast that it becomes necessary, Gary Wollards' pile in the north garage had probably 30 complete frames , so the stuff will be available as it comes down the pike . You have my respect as an avid builder, this is interesting reading and the photos are "iceing on the cake" Please keep up the good work and keep us all posted ,All the best Larry Brown.
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I finally got the brake system finished. I built a pivot using the stock kick start shaft to run under the motor back to an equalizer bar. This bar than pulls on 2 shafts running out to each side of the frame. These then pull the brake rods that run to each wheel.
I also removed the governor from the clone motor I am using, which will give a little more horsepower.
Rick
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Rick, did you notice in that article that I posted about Erickson's truck that the box had a spring suspension? Will you do the same, or will yours be mounted solid?
Mike Sal
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The early boxes were spring mounted, the later were not. I am going to solid mount mine. Just as a side note, I recently came across a spec for the later box. 32w x 27l x 20h.
Rick
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Well, I finally got to test out my truck. I rode it around the block, and all seems well. It certainly doesn't handle like a bike! It requires much more care and slow speeds on turns.
Man, the exhaust is loud! I need to put a muffler on it. It is as loud as an uncorked harley.
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Nice progress Rick, lookin good!
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I'm trying to get more work done before bringing it to Portland. I will not have it all painted, but it should be operational. I have the tank and front fender straight and ready for paint, and I built the wood box. I have decided to try to spring mount it using 4 seat springs.
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Hey Rick, Hows this bike coming along? what about the electric start? Are you using it to run lights?
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I need to work on the brakes. It does not stop as good as it goes, which can get you into trouble quick. I just got new brake linings and will put these on first, and see if that helps. If not, I will make new, longer brake arms to increase the mechanical advantage.
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I wasn't really happy with the plate I welded in for the engine mount, it was an off the shelf Kart mount. It was only 1/8" and flexed too much for my liking. I picked up a piece of 1/4 plate and made a new, bolt in plate instead. I think it looks better and is much more secure. I still get a little vibration, and I am going to weld in a cross brace to the frame at the rear of the mount, and add another mounting boss to it.
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I picked up a couple of Harley Sportster front fenders at a swap meet for $20. They are not symmetrical, so I cut off the front part, and hammer formed some longer pieces and welded them together. A little filler and they should do the trick.
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Rick ,
Have you considered vibration isolators , similar to :
(http://cloudfront.zorotools.com/product/full/2NPC2_AS01.JPG)
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00012694/k-G2962172?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=COvT_feS1LQCFQeDnQodyBoA_A
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Rick ,
Have you considered vibration isolators , similar to :
(http://cloudfront.zorotools.com/product/full/2NPC2_AS01.JPG)
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00012694/k-G2962172?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=COvT_feS1LQCFQeDnQodyBoA_A
Funny you should mention them, as I have thought about it. I just wasn't sure how well they would work. Do you think they are stiff enough?
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All of those mounts like those that I have seen were pretty tough. I have an air boat motor that uses them horizontally.
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Like Tom says , they are pretty tough .
I have seen them in use on engine powered generators we use to run . The old ones that didn't have the well balanced motors that we have these days . They lasted for years on those rigs and they took a beating being used on rough in construction sites everyday .
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Did some more work on the fenders, and mounted them to the bed. Not too bad for a pair of sportster fenders! I'm getting there. I should have it all ready and painted by Portland.
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Looking good , Rick . :)
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Did a little more work on the truck. I picked up a tractor battery at Walmart and now have the electric start up and running. I made a small battery box and just need to make a tie down for the battery so it is secure.
It is starting to warm up around here, so I may be able to get it painted in the next month or so. I will be ready for Portland!!
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Pics ... Where'd ya put the box ?
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Pics ... Where'd ya put the box ?
In the box! Pics to follow.
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Here is the battery mounted and secure. I will use rubber on the bottom of the box and the bracket to proved cushioning.
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Hmm , I guess you have to put something in that box . ;)
Are you going to build a battery box to protect the stuff you toss in there from the battery and to hide that ugly old battery and cables ?
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Hmm , I guess you have to put something in that box . ;)
Are you going to build a battery box to protect the stuff you toss in there from the battery and to hide that ugly old battery and cables ?
I haven't decided on that. I am going to build a top for the whole box.
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I suppose it depends on how you intend using the truck . Still , it would be a nice finishing touch to have the battery and cables out of sight , when you open the truck box to show the whole thing off . :)
If you built the battery box all the way across , that would afford a place for a few tools as well .
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That thing looks amazing Rick, I wish I had the skills to build and fabricate like that...Can't wait to see the finished product.
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Only 5 weeks or so to Portland. I have everything painted except for the box and tins. I just started reassembly.
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Step it up, chop chop, lets get a move on. ;D
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Step it up, chop chop, lets get a move on. ;D
Reese, I'm working on it! I will have it at Portland.
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I don't know Rick , that thing looks awful shiny to me . ;)
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I got the box painted and installed. I have wiring to take care of, but she is coming together!
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Looking great , Rick .
Nicely done . :)
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Wow, that really does look great Rick. All of you have fun in Portland. Wish I could make it, maybe next year.
Vince
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Very nice truck. Like Vince, I plan to make it next year!!!!!! Mike
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Tank decal on and ready to roll at Portland. The only thing I did not complete was the wiring for lights.
See you guys there!
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Who has photos of completed 3 wheeler?
I would love to see it.
Thanks
Dave
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Dave, I sold that one long ago. I have no idea where it is, as the guy I sold it to resold it.
Here is my 2nd 3 Wheel Truck I built. This one is just about indistinguishable from an original. Look through this: https://simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=1679.0 and if you have any questions, let me know. Btw, this is currently for sale for $7700.