General Category => Wheels & Tires => Topic started by: Eitek1 on January 05, 2016, 09:50:17 AM
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I've only posted one other time so Hi everyone!
I think I've read every post on the site and one thing that keeps coming up is a good supply for tires acceptable for use. I know Coker makes one but they are a bit spendy.
In planning for my build (Which currently consists of a frame forks included) I've been thinking about my wheels. I want something that will withstand New Orleans famous potholes. That leads me away from the standard bicycle solution. I feel that any change in tire size will negatively effect the looks of the cycle.
After much reading I found out that simplex and older scooter/moped tires are sized based on the outside diameter of the tire. At some point they changed this because current tires are sized based on the dimension of the inside diameter or tire bead.
With that in mind I started looking for similarities. It turns out that a 21" motorcycle rim has a fairly large selection of tires available. These are a large number DOT approved as well. I'm pretty sure it's the chosen size for narrow Harley type "Chopper" wheels.
Honda makes a 21" 36 spoke rim but I'm not sure what it was originally on. If that were mated to a 50cc honda dirt bike drum brake/hub it might make a nice set up for a simplex. I think both parts are easily obtained. I'm not sure about the spokes but I think that could be managed.
Just a though, but has anyone else explored this?
Thanks!
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IMHO, by the time you buy rims, hubs, spokes and tires, you will have spent a lot more money than just buying the Simplex reproductions from Coker. To get the same size tire as a Simplex in a 21" motorcycle tire, you will have to find a 2.50-21. I looked for a street tire in that size and never found one. I used 2.75-21 on a Sportsman, but that tire is too large for a regular Simplex fender. Also, being that the only tire I found in that size is a reproduction of a Firestone from Coker, there is no money savings.
Now, if I were going to build a Simplex, and was trying to ride it over 50 mph, I would look for motorcycle tires and brakes. That said, I have looked around and have never found a tire that I thought was suitable. If you find something, please post it up so we can check it out. Thanks, Rick
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Hi, Might want to check out NOLA tires in New Orleans for motorcycle and bike tire sizes. I've spent some time looking for DOT rated tires but Rick S. lives this stuff & I agree that there is not much out there. 21"x 2.5" are available in agressive tread patterns which would work on a build like mine, but would look funky on a true restoration. Since you didn't state a build direction for your bike I'd just be guessing what would suit you. Rick C.
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I have over a couple hundred miles on my "Whizzer bicycle tires/tubes" (at speeds below 50mph) with no issues. See my post under "wheels/tires".
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So I was poking around the Internet looking up different wheel stuff. I came across this post which is effectively what I was talking about in my post.
The interesting part is it came from here. Any background on this?
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=56498;sa=showPosts
I understand the 3" won't work with the existing simplex fenders but I'm still curious about a DOT tire option. Besides, I don't have any fenders yet anyway so I might be able to get creative.
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So I was poking around the Internet looking up different wheel stuff. I came across this post which is effectively what I was talking about in my post.
The interesting part is it came from here. Any background on this?
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=56498;sa=showPosts
I understand the 3" won't work with the existing simplex fenders but I'm still curious about a DOT tire option. Besides, I don't have any fenders yet anyway so I might be able to get creative.
I don't think the company that was going to provide these wheels is in business any longer. If you pursue motorcycle wheels, I would look into a wheel that is 19".
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Eitec,
I went back to ebay and read the NOLA wheel add for their Vee brand tire. NOLA is a New Orleans company. The add states that this tire is rated at 750 lb., each tire. That's a heck of a load capacity. They further state that it is being used by the New Orleans pedi-cab operators with great success. The final point made is that if they can hold up to the wear and tear of New Orleans harsh streets, they are good to roll anywhere. Kevlar bead to bead. About $50. bucks for a 26 x 2.5 tire shipped. 750 lb. is not quite double the weight (465 lbs.) carrying capacity of a 130 mph DOT rated small motorcycle tire, which they also stock & sell to put things in perspective. The Vee tire one I'm running on the front of the Simplex stands about 27" inflated at 65 lbs. It mounted well despite the stiff side walls. I run double rim tape and heavy thorn proof tubes as well. I'll update as I get some serious miles on this one. Rick C.
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Anybody got details about the side car/hack mounted on the Silver state bicycle drop loop frame/ Lifan Honda clone which Eitec just posted...that side car solution looks interesting & adaptable to a lot of frame variations. Help on recall of any details please. Rick C.
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Ndian22, I didn't even think to look at all the pedicabs running around here. Good call on that as a resource.
Are you local to NOLA? I know exactly where NOLA wheel is, my wife and I eat a Crabby Jacks all the time and it's right around the corner. I'm going to stop by there in the next week or two. I think they would be a great resource.
I was coming here to ask you guys what is the goto wheelset for a standard build? I think I'm not going to try and "reinvent the wheel" pun intended... I finally have my ducks in a row and am going to proceed with my build.
As a bit of humor for you guys I am doing this in my "kitchen". I moved away from a house in the country with a shop and all the room I could want. My wife and I moved into a house that has neither a shop nor all the room I could want. That didn't quench my desire to bust my knuckles on occasion. So, my wife gave up a corner of her kitchen to my madness. YEAH!
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Here is a link for anyone interested in the Tire that Rick was talking about.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vee-Rubber-26-x-2-50-NOLA-Ultra-Duty-Mountain-Bike-Pedi-Taxi-Bicycle-Tire-/251696011612?hash=item3a9a40595c:g:aa8AAOSwQJ5UT~d3
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No I'm in Oklahoma.
One of the amazing builds I've seen was by a young man who scratch built a frame with a v-twin in his kitchen & the alley outside his apartment. Using basic hand tools and not a great many of those. He was not a metal fabricator but an artist, as in fine art. Goes to show what can be done with determination mixed with inspiration & perspiration. You can do this. Rick C.
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Rick, I had a very interesting conversation with the guy from NOLA Wheels. Turns out he is a fan of the simplex. He is a distributor for Vee tires and went to them and had them build a special made tire for the Pedicabs.
"Honestly though, these tires were designed for the simplex. They are motorcycle tires that will fit on a bike. The pedicab thing was so I could get them made". That's what he told me. He also said they are selling well
So there you have it straight from the source so to speak.
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I'm glad you made contact with him. I've corresponded with him but at the time I wasn't involved with the Simplex build & there was no mention of Simplex by either of us. He was in very interested in my motor bicycle builds & I sent some photos that he requested. I'm currently running the Vee tire we're talking about which is a 26 x 2.5" on the fork my modified Simplex. I'm only just breaking in the bike, but tire feels fine and looks good as well. It mounted well and was noticeably much stiffer than any bicycle (clincher) tire I've ever mounted, so I know the sidewalls are extremely stiff. I'm running double liners & the Vee brand thorn proof tubes as well. I've run Fat Frank's kevlar lined 2.4" on the same rims and thought they were heavy duty...don't even compare. Another thing 750 lbs. per tire is an insane load number, when 130 mph speed rated tires are often under 500 lbs. load capacity rating. I'd be interested in what he has to say about speed and safety for these "bicycle" tires & why no DOT certification stamped on the tire. With the price of Coker's Simplex tire you can buy 4 of these shipped for one of Corky's. Let's get some more info. He is missing out on a good market not just Simplex but the 4 cycle bicycle builds are becoming quite powerful with some already using Coker Simplex on Worksman bicycle rims etc. Rick C.
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He needs to have that tire made with a more vintage tread design. I think either a button or ribbed tread would sell great!
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He needs to have that tire made with a more vintage tread design. I think either a button or ribbed tread would sell great!
I'll second that^ .
Pete . :)
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I totally agree with a vintage tread pattern, if the tire is up to spec for use on the Simplex then the tread pattern shouldn't clash with the authenticity/ integrity of the restoration. I've grown accustomed to the "flame" tread & use it on three of my moto bikes. It actually corners well & runs well when wet. Of course I'm not restoring...whole different deal, but I'd select the vintage tread over the flame if all other specs were the same. Rick C.
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I think I'll be chatting with the owner in the next few weeks. He invited me to come by his shop. He said he has "some interesting things" to look at.
The way we got on the subject of Simplex's was kind of funny. I called and asked if they sold worksman wheels. I was going to buy local if I could. I told the guy I was talking to "I want them for a simplex". The guy said "simplex, huh". I then heard a voice that said "let me talk to that guy".
I'll let you guys know what I find out when I visit his shop and chat with him. I think he might be the only person selling this particular tire. He makes them in runs of 500 or so. It's not a continuous batch so there may be a chance to get a tread change, but that's just my opinion.
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I think I'll be chatting with the owner in the next few weeks. He invited me to come by his shop. He said he has "some interesting things" to look at.
The way we got on the subject of Simplex's was kind of funny. I called and asked if they sold worksman wheels. I was going to buy local if I could. I told the guy I was talking to "I want them for a simplex". The guy said "simplex, huh". I then heard a voice that said "let me talk to that guy".
I'll let you guys know what I find out when I visit his shop and chat with him. I think he might be the only person selling this particular tire. He makes them in runs of 500 or so. It's not a continuous batch so there may be a chance to get a tread change, but that's just my opinion.
Well, get on it! Lol
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I plan on calling him as well & pump a bit of air up his skirts. He is sitting on the edge of a nice market. Quality vintage pattern tires in 2.5" to 3" width for 26" clincher wheels & at price points below Coker is a no brainer. Rick C.
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Now I'm thinking about taking off early and riding over there. You guys are a bad influence.
Damn Bikers.... ;D
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So I rode over there and talked to him. He is a very nice guy and has been around motorcycles in one way or another his whole life.
I told him about the market for the tires was there with a period correct pattern. He said he had considered it but the cost to create a mold with the vintage pattern was an additional expense. He said he was feeling the market out but was moving slowly. He said he kind of fell backward into this so I understand his timing.
He said he'd like to get his hands on an original simplex tire to make the mold off of if he was going to make the treads ribbed. I asked "why not get a coker". He said he didn't believe they were period correct. If anyone has an old simplex tire laying around they'd like to give up for the cause, it might be worth it.
I asked about the DOT rating and the answer was basically, the current market I'm servicing doesn't require it, it's an added expense that wouldn't benefit me at this point. Hard to argue with that. That being said, I think the tire would pass whatever qualifications were needed to get DOT approved. He said in pedicab service they were lasting 500% longer than the Maxxis Hookworm. The tires are legitimate. He also developed a stronger tube to run in the tires. It's got a really thick outer circumference and a thinner inner circumference. He said they hold up well under New Orleans streets.
He has the same tire in a 2.125 size if anyone is interested.Oh yea, he said he was considering doing the same tire in a 3.0 inch as well. We talked for about an hour and I'm sure there's something I've left out.
Jason
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Great job Jason.
The Coker Simplex 26 x 2.5 Tire is an EXACT reproduction of an original. If I had an old original anymore, I would donate it to the cause. Anyone have one laying around?
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Rick,
I just read the Code of Federal regulations around tire testing for motorcycles. I'm new to this and was wondering, what's the impetus for the DOT stamp? The code was approved in 1975 I think so I'm not sure if vehicles made before that would even be subject to the requirement.
If the requirement does exist it still doesn't look like a big deal to get one certified. In my day job I've participated in stress and failure testing of equipment so I've been down this path. I'm going to call a qualified lab on Monday and see if I can nail down exactly what it will take. Maybe we can usher this along a bit...
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Rick,
I just read the Code of Federal regulations around tire testing for motorcycles. I'm new to this and was wondering, what's the impetus for the DOT stamp? The code was approved in 1975 I think so I'm not sure if vehicles made before that would even be subject to the requirement.
If the requirement does exist it still doesn't look like a big deal to get one certified. In my day job I've participated in stress and failure testing of equipment so I've been down this path. I'm going to call a qualified lab on Monday and see if I can nail down exactly what it will take. Maybe we can usher this along a bit...
I haven't the slightest idea. Sorry.
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My Simplex rims have tires mounted ...they are ribbed & weather cracked. At any rate sounds like it's worth following up on & I'd be glad to ship to him. My frame is a 1957 #166688 if memory serves & I recall the tires are marked 26" x 2.5" I just remembered that I'd brought the fork and wheel to my house and I just checked & that tire is marked Servi-cycle so I do have an original for the cause! So we're in business on two fronts since Rick S. is confident of the Coker being an exact replica.
The Vee tire is made in Thailand & if you look at the Vee brand cycle tires that Nola has listed on Ebay in his store he lists them & their speed as well as load rating. It probably is extra but it's obviously something that the plant in Thailand is quite capable of providing.
Jason I'm with you on the Biker comment...bad influence indeed.Rick C.
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The reproduction tires are marked Simplex, and if the tire is not completely worn out, also says Servi-Cycle all around the center tread of tire.
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ndian22 if you have the tire and its unserviceable for normal use I think it might well serve another purpose. If you're willing to send it I promise you I'll make it up to you. If you decide to do it let me know and you can send it to him directly or me and I can get it to him. I would have to imagine you wouldn't see it again though. I think it would get sent to Thailand for mold validation.
I believed that the Coker was an exact replica and Ricks validation proves it.
Unfortunately, I don't count. I believe our enterprising tire baron needs to see it for himself. Personally I don't blame him. I need to see stuff for myself as well. I would imagine a tire mold is something you want perfect upfront.
As far as getting it DOT certified, according to the federal regs you have to test exactly 1 tire to validate performance. Even then the test looks like it will only take a day or so with probably another day of admin work for the test lab. I'm sure the engineers will charge a pretty penny for it though. the hardest part of the DOT qualification actually appeared to be listing all of the "factory" wheels that the tire would fit. You have to list what all acceptable rims for the tire to perform at spec.
About the dated regulation comment, if memory serves me right, anything made before 1962 or something isn't required to have seat belts. Since the DOT reg didn't exist before them they are probably exempt.
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Jason I will check the tires in the light of day and get back to you. Glad to send what I have & don't expect to see them again...no problem, though getting them off the rims in one piece may be an adventure. The Simplex I have was literally in the barn for over 30 years & the tires are very dry & brittle.
Speed rating testing is pretty standardized mount a tire (at recommended pressure) to appropriate rim & load the rim and tire to duplicate the load weight And spin the whole assembly against a rotating tube. Starting at slow speeds (kilometers then converted to mph) for 10 minutes then speed is increased by 6 + mph & repeated at 10 minute intervals and 6 + mph until tire integrity is validated. In metric then converted for this market to MPH (that's why the mph ratings in the U.S. end up odd). In Germany & on the autobahn really important as it is to racers any where. I like the feeling of security it brings drive 70 but rated for 130 makes me feel warm and fuzzy kinda.
Reason I'm posting this is not to cause an argument, which takes two & I'm not playing. Just want to clarify my thoughts on the tire safety issue (authentic reproduction is not at issue in this, it's a specific topic unto itself) safety under load and at reasonable cruising speed on the highway.
I checked the Coker site and the tire specs they list & I brought this away from the information they supply (minimal) The Coker tire is an authentic replica molding (complete down to center rib markings on the tread pattern) They do not publish a speed or load rating for the tire on their site. Load rating stated as... NO, which I take to mean unknown. The Coker tire isn't directional which being vintage pattern is understandable.
No DOT rating for either load weight or speed, but authentic, clincher, heavy duty bias ply tire & well thought of by those who own them. Pricing on ebay seemed to vary greatly but $130. ish shipped was available from dealers. I know I've read opinion as to speed ratings of up to 90 mph but not from the Coker site. Overall I'd say it's the only authentic tire out there so it's a bargain.
Directional tires like are used on modern motorcycles have definite benefits better wet traction, cornering and fuel mileage being among them. Tire life though is shorter given the exact same material compounds. I don't see any way that an authentic repro tire can be truly directional and authentic. My opinion.
The Vee brand in the 2.5" width is a bit over $50. shipped (my last order) It is rated by the distributor as directional, with 750 lb. load rating and kevlar belted. It is not however a vintage tread design. It seems both tires are viable options depending on whats important for the individual build at this time, but I'd really like to see Coker step up with at least a tire load rating for the Simplex. I do think that 50 mph cruising on the Coker or Vee brand would be safe. The Manufacturers speed rating is invalidated if the tire is punctured and repaired. So if you have a flat don't ever drive over 55 from then on in your Ferrari, lol.
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Photos of the original tread pattern & tire. Rick C.
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Rick, those wheels look pretty decent. Are they straight? If you are thinking of selling, please let me know.
As far as I can recall, the Coker tires do not have any DOT stamp on them. I wonder what the liability would be on a street registered bike accident without a DOT approved tire? Personally, I didn't even consider it, and thinking about it, I don't even care. Lol
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Rick C. Thanks for the clarification, it provided some insight and helped me understand a bit more.
What you said makes sense. I want to summerize to make sure I understood properly.
Simplex reproductions aren't DOT rated because they are made for the simplex and have inherent speed limitations built in. Hence no need for speed ratings.
Simplex tires are unidirectional and therefor a reproduction would have built in limitations based on the different tread patterns. In addition there would be an authenticity issue.
As far as an argument you will never get one from me. The only thing I'm sure of is I know very little on most subjects. I try to be a student of all things. It's the learning I enjoy and I'm glad folks like yourself can contribute and help me get better.
I guess the reason I'm asking all these questions stems from a comment earlier in the thread. This guy is sitting on the edge of a very nice market and in talking to him, I'm not sure he realizes it. This guy is a really genuinely nice guy. He literally gave me a set of 26x2.125 tires to test out. He wouldn't let me pay him.
He runs a small motorcycle shop and has this tire thing as part of it. I asked him about a DOT rating on the tires and he said it was too much trouble right now. He has access to the manufacturing to build about anything that looks like an old motorcycle tire. Right now he is competing with a bicycle market because he's selling a bicycle tire. With a DOT rating he competes in a different market.
I just wanted to understand more so I could maybe help this guy and maybe the old motorcycle community. He's a nice guy and they are becoming rarer and rarer.
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As far as I can recall, the Coker tires do not have any DOT stamp on them. I wonder what the liability would be on a street registered bike accident without a DOT approved tire? Personally, I didn't even consider it, and thinking about it, I don't even care. Lol
RickS, that's kind of what I was getting at with the seatbelt comment. I think it only matters with a new vehicle. That's why Coker tires aren't DOT marked... they don't have to be. Consider if they made all old vehicles meet new standards. Old cars would be crushed as unsafe. Original equipment is seen as kosher on old vehicles even though they can be used on the roads like everything else, you just couldn't produce it for purchase on a new vehicle without it.
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I think they are decent Rick, if you like I'll take some photos & post. You got a frame that I can cut up & stretch?
Only thing interesting about DOT is FMIO (for my information only) manufacturers use it to sell more product at higher profit margins. Lawyers make sure companies have a weasel hole to escape through, the tire puncture repair clause is just one such route to elude corporate responsibility in liability lawsuits.
Jason I think you followed the Old guys ramblings quite well. Lot of nice guys in this world but they are mostly low key & therefore over looked by a society that is so self absorbed that reality is mostly ignored, including taking notice of and giving credit due to others. Values are mostly out of whack.
I continue to think Nola Wheels could make a nice profit & at the same time a contribution with a slightly expanded Vee tire line & a bit of marketing adjustment. Rick C.
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Rick, no frames left. I will be on the lookout for another 1 or 2 at Portland this summer. I am going to build another 3 wheel truck in the future, so I am collecting parts.
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Took some pictures of the Coker tire for comparison. Still dirty from Portland last year. These are on my rat bike, which never gets cleaned.
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Rick I seem to remember reading that Corky Coker bought the actual Simplex tire dies for his "reproductions" if so he might have copyright protection as well on the Servi-Cycle & Simplex tire "branding" but not on the tread design, just the product branding. Your Cokers prove the point well, they are great reproductions.
If you locate a frame that could be a donor let me know. Basket case preferred as the only area I'm concerned with is the "steerer" section & a few inches of upper and lower tubes need to be in excellent condition as well as the axle drops. I really don't want to destroy a good frame & won't. If I find a good one I'll give you a shot at it.
I would sell the wheels but not actively trying to sell anything, but they are here & no hurry...make an offer or trade? Rick C.
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Rick I seem to remember reading that Corky Coker bought the actual Simplex tire dies for his "reproductions" if so he might have copyright protection as well on the Servi-Cycle & Simplex tire "branding" but not on the tread design, just the product branding. Your Cokers prove the point well, they are great reproductions.
If you locate a frame that could be a donor let me know. Basket case preferred as the only area I'm concerned with is the "steerer" section & a few inches of upper and lower tubes need to be in excellent condition as well as the axle drops. I really don't want to destroy a good frame & won't. If I find a good one I'll give you a shot at it.
I would sell the wheels but not actively trying to sell anything, but they are here & no hurry...make an offer or trade? Rick C.
Rick, I don't think Corky bought the original dies. The reason I say this is because 3 gentlemen put up the money to have the dies made for the reproduction tires. As I understand it, Coker gave them a discount on the tires when they were first made, but no longer. As a matter of fact, 2 of the 3 are no longer with us.
As for copyrights, I have no idea. I have discussed this with Wayne in the past, but his lawyer didn't believe there were any on Simplex at all. In the mid 1960's, Simplex minibikes and Go Karts were sold under the Valiant Manufacturing name. Treen sold the company in 1972 and they went out of business in 1975.
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Thanks for the clarification & background info. I don't know where that story popped up but there is a lot of muddled versions of lots of topics on the web. Question & verify...part of my training in another life but still valid today. Rick C.
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Jason I talked with Greg at Nola Wheels today & they ran out of the 2.5" order won't be in for about a month. He sounds excited about his product and optimistic about his Vee brand kevlar tires holding their own performance wise against the Coker Simplex. Flame tread pattern isn't going to fly with vintage restorations though. Rick C.
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Did anyone follow up with NOLA on a reproduction tire?
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I haven't. I need to ride over there and talk to Greg. I'll commit to do that in the near future. My free time has been limited lately. It took me a few weeks just to draw up that axle in the other thread for lack of spare time.
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Rick I've checked back on availability of the 2.5" Vee & still not in stock as of last week. No commitment to the vintage tread pattern to this point. Rick C.
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Does Greg at Nola Wheels have a web site ?
Pete . :)
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Pete I have no knowledge of a website, but they have an Ebay store & I posted a phone number some time back on this thread I believe. Rick C.
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Pete guess I didn't post that phone number on this forum. I'll check my phone logs.
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NOLA Wheels (504)846-4800 Greg or Chuck for Vee tyre info Rick C.
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OK . Thanks Rick C . :)
I now have the info in my notes .
Pete . :)