General Category => Wheels & Tires => Topic started by: Eitek1 on April 10, 2016, 01:37:01 PM
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I read that folks are using the worksman wheels in their builds. Folks that have done this, are you changing the axles and other parts to fit?
I purchased the 77A model wheel from worksman. It fits the front forks just fine. I'm going to have to change the axle or add some bushings to the forks to fit the diameter of the axle. In addition I'll have to play with the brake lever a bit but it looks ok.
For the rear wheel, the distance between the rear dropouts is 6". The 77A stock rim won't work without changing the axle.
Is there something else you guys are running for a rear wheels that works better? Is the 6" distance between the rear dropouts on my simplex frame sound right?
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Most guys that have run a worksman wheel have bought just the rims and laced them to a stock simplex hub. This keeps the stock brakes and look.
What diameter is the worksman axle? Probably could get a longer axle from a bicycle shop.
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The axle is a 5/16 axle. It's a good looking wheel with a substantial drum brake. Below is a picture of what it looks like "mounted". BTW that's the NOLA wheels 2.125 tire on there for reference.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/image.jpg1_zpsfuervdeq.jpg)
Here are some other pics of the wheel.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/image.jpg2_zpsgn1txfri.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/image.jpg4_zpsiixxqoih.jpg)
It looks like there is enough thickness in this collar to drill it out to 1/2 inch to accept a larger axle.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/image.jpg3_zpsqfdk0h92.jpg)
I need to find a 1/2 by 1-3/16 sealed bearing to replace the ones that are there. I'll find a 1/2 x 6 axle or make one.
It looks like it will work Ok with a little modification.
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Did you put a mic on the bearings? 1 3/16" is close to 32mm. They make 32mm bearings with 1/2" bore.
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I didn't mic it. I just eyeballed it with a tape measure. I would be willing to bet you're right and it's a 32mm.
I'll validate the size tomorrow if I can.
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Measure the width also. BTW, a Simplex axle is 7/16-26 BSC.
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Great looking setup Jason. I went through the whole thing too with the Gator. Here's the deal: I used the standard "coaster brake" axle on the Simplex dropouts with steel axle bushings. You may have to order a longer rear axle shaft 'cause your drops are wider than a standard bicycles. Your Sturmey A. rear axle's about the same size i.e. too small without the bushings. My Springer fork uses a small axle as well. My question is: What are you trying to achieve with a larger axle diameter? Perfect fitment? Then use bushings. Perfect duplication of Simplex design? That's good too. Or is it about safety as well? That's really important in my mind and I stayed with the smaller axles. My reasoning involves the current state of product liability laws & a the state of our current society. Companies overbuild even the cheapest Walmart bicycles because of fear of litigation. If you are a normal size guy say between 150 & 250 lbs. the 14 ga. spokes and axles on a Wally bike are sufficient, but the spokes and rim will go before the axle. Jason your Worksman wheels were made to haul industrial loads and pedicab passengers as well as for pleasure use. The same wheel and axle is used for many purposes & they are still in business after all their competition has dropped by the wayside. Worksman started in the 1890's and built rugged. They are way overbuilt, including axle strength, because people abuse their tools and then want to file litigation.
My "small axles" are not a concern to me on my Gator, but then this is your build & your the one who has to decide what both what the question is & it's answer. Have fun! Rick C.
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I thought about adding bushings to the existing setup. I know that would work and has been used successfully by you guys here.
For me, it would be easier to change out to a new axle size than it would be to turn down a bushing to the proper size. I can get my hands on a drill and die for the axle threads easier than a lathe for the bushing. I usually keep things forever and I imagined myself getting perturbed trying to deal with the bushings for the next 20 years each time I pulled the wheels.
As for my simplex I'm going for a look as close to stock as I can get. I guess I'm going for "something the casual observer won't notice". In addition to all that, I don't quite fit in your average size category ;-). Having a larger axle across the span of the rear dropouts is kind of appealing from a safety perspective.
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The bearing currently used in that wheel is a metric bearing and it is a press fit.
OD 1.18" / 30mm
W .39" / 10mm
ID .35 / 9mm
I'll poke around and see if I can find the bearings for the swap out and the shaft. I was kind of worried on how to keep the hub stable in relation to the wheel for the brake. I think I'm going to (get a buddy to) weld a bit of key stock on the crown of the rear most shoulder bolt to fit the groove in the wheel brake bracket. I'll play around with this a bit and see if I can come up with something that looks right.
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Peace of mind when it comes to safety yours or others is personal & it's better to err on the side of caution when in doubt. Rick C.
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As far as I can tell, there is not much selection in a 30mm od bearing. All I see is a 30mm od x 10 mm id x 9 mm width. That is not much gain, and probably not worth the work. If I was concerned about axle strength, I would go to a 32mm od x 1/2" id x 10mm wide bearing. This is part number 6201- 1/2. This would only work if the hub had enough material to bore it.
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I guess with simplex as with everything else in life... there are no easy answers.
I didn't see a readily available bearing either.
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I called a few bearing suppliers and they said they don't have what I am looking for. I kept looking and I found something that I think may work. It's an oddball bearing for a particular application that is remarkably close to what I need.
There may be a bearing out there that is exactly what I need. It's on a German website and I don't speak German. I have to wait for my buddy to make it to work to translate it for me. Hopefully it's exactly what I need.
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I'm guessing you don't use Google . Google translate seems to work fairly well for me .
Pete . :)
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Google failed gloriously when I hit the "Translate Page" button.
For the record, wellendichtring does not mean "incredibly scarce bearing Jason needs".
It means Shaft Seal.
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LOL . True , Google is fallible . Just that it generally does a decent job .
So , did that German page have what you're looking for ?
Pete . :)
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It didn't. It was a bearing supplier page that was in German. It had a picture of a bearing with the proper dimensions. Unfortunately it was a shaft seal with those dimensions.
I bought a couple of bearings that are 1 3/16 on the OD and 1/2 inch on the ID. They are flanged bearings but that's not a big deal. I just hope the width is right. When I get them I'll find the technical specs on them to make sure they are suitable.
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I looked at some bearings from Europe , but the shipping was ridiculous . I ended using a slightly lessor bearing at a cost I could justify .
Hopefully things will work in your favor .
Pete . :)
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Ok, I think I know what I'm going to try. I think this might work.
Granger carries a 7/16 x 29/32 bearing as a stock item. I found a oilite bearing in 15/16 x 1 3/16. The bushing will be .0066 oversized on the OD and undersized .0317 on the ID. If I press it in I might get enough compression to make up the difference in the ID. I know it won't be a proper interference fit but it should be sufficient. At least I think it might be...
If this works, I'll be able to use the standard size simplex axle and an off the shelf bearing.
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I bought all the items to do both the front and rear rim with a mess up or two to spare. Total cost was around 25 dollars. If it works I'll post up pics and part numbers. If it doesn't work I might still post pics to show others the wrong way to do it. ;D
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Post pics as you go . For better or worse . It makes for great entertainment and education . ;)
Pete . :)
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Get anywhere with this?
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Sorry, I should have updated. The ID of the bushings were not close enough to the OD of the bearings. No off the shelf solution. I tried though. From my math it looked like it would work but once I held everything in my hands and tried fitting it up it was a no go.
I'm working on another idea related to the other thread about a electric starter on the GC-190. Either way I'm going to need the services of a machinist. Looks like the wheels are going to be on the list of items that need that skill. I got a lead on a good one I just need to get my drawings together to have the stuff machined. I have a 7 year old so finding the time is... challenging.
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Why not just train your 7 year old to operate a mill ? ;)
Pete . :)
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Trust me, that's on the list. Actually the school he goes to has a full prototyping facility. I asked the guy that runs the facility if he knew a good machinist. We talked about what I was doing. He said "I've got the equipment if you know how to use it". Unfortunately I don't. There isn't much I can't do with my hands but that is on the list. He will be my machinist when he gets a little older. ;-)
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If the bushing path is something you would still like to pursue message me. I can help. Maybe it will be the start of a neat conversion.
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Ok, I think I've got a solution to this. Again.... I think this will actually work because the sizes are actually correct.
The existing bearings in the worksman wheel have a 30mm OD. So I need to fit something in that hole. Here is what I found and I think it will work.
Here are the bearings
http://www.amazon.com/LR6001NPPU-Bearing-12x30x8-Bearings-VXB/dp/B00FNX4SCA?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
They are 30mm X 12mm ID. They should press in and fit just right.
Now we are on to the axles. They need to be 12mm to fit the bearings but will be too large for the dropouts. The part numbers below were ordered from Treatland.tv They are 12mm through the center and 11mm on the ends. They should fit the bearings and should fit the dropouts.
tomos part number 230509 Front Axle
tomos part number 222585 Rear Axle
The only think that may be "iffy" is the length of the rear axle. It might not be quite wide enough.
Tom... thanks for the help and brain power you gave to this. After your offer I looked at it a different way and think I might have it. The parts should be here by next week. I'll let you all know how good I did or how bad I messed up.
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Couple of questions and observations.
What are you doing for axle nuts? Simplex used a stepped nut, are you going to duplicate this? As I see it, this locks the axle into the front rockers for a secure fit.
I just measured my front rockers and rear dropouts. The rear dropouts are 14.5 mm, the rockers are 11.95 mm before they open up to 14.5 mm. Why did you not just order 12mm axles? A few light passes with a file would open the rockers to 12 mm.
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I was going to order the 12mm and do just that with a file. While I was looking I saw the ones that dropped down to 11mm and figured that was closer to 7/16 and went with it. I ordered a few of the nuts that come with the axle but I'm going to wait and see what they look like when they get here. If I have to go with something different I will.
Are both the front and rear axles on the simplex 7/16? I'm setting up shipping for that other simplex tomorrow. It'll be a little easier to retrofit this stuff when I have something to compare to.
Thanks again for the input. I hope it works out but if it doesn't I'll know one more way that worksman wheels won't fit on a simplex.
I have a buddy that bought a frame the same time I did. We had lunch today and I asked him if he got started yet. He told me no and asked how I was coming with the wheels. I think he's letting me get one step ahead of him so he doesn't have to struggle through this. I think he's smarter than me...
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front and rear axles are 7/16. as close as 11mm is to this we could make axle nuts to resemble the original Simplex ones so they fit the drop outs correctly. They are actually stepped to fit into the round potion of the fork drop out so that they can't just drop out! We could even get the correct size hex to match a Simplex and completely make them from scratch and fit them to the axle you end up with.
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Does anyone have a picture of this nut that I could take a look at? I looked around online and saw a couple of different variations that I can only imagine aren't original.
I think if I had it to do all over again, I'd call Worksman and order the hub, brake, spokes and rim separate and without bearings and axles. I'm going to tear it all down for painting anyway and that way I wouldn't pay for parts that I didn't need and the effort to tear it down.
Tom, once I see a pic I'm going to look around and see if I can find something similar. If not, I think that a custom cut nut might be the ticket.
As a side note, I went back through the Wheels & Tires forum and saw something pretty interesting. In the thread about "Rear sealed bearing converstion" by illMATTIc http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=603.0 He talks about adding a sealed bearing to the original simplex rear hub. He said he put a 1-1/8 bearing with a 1/16 shim on the OD. That is effectively the same thing I was going to have to do. The ID of the bearing slot for the worksman wheel is 1 3/16 or 30mm.
The possibility may exist that the bearing that I ordered will fit in an original simplex hub and the same axle I ordered may work too... if there is a proper nut to fit it.
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Did you really want to see my nuts?
Ok, you asked for it. LOL
These are later style acorn nuts. Earlier used the same step but with an open nut.
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Rick, thanks for the pic of your nuts. Honestly, I never really thought I'd be asking a man for a picture of his nuts but your nuts are vintage, are of great interest and are a sight to behold. ;D
I see what you are talking about as far as a stepped nut. I admit, I was a little confused as to what exactly that meant. After looking at it I'll say I'm still a bit curious. I'm wondering what kind of mechanical advantage was gained by the short collar on the wheel side of the nut.
It looks like the advantage would be that the rocker rides on the nut itself instead of the axle. I know there was a reason to make that special nut as opposed to using a regular nut but mentally I'm having trouble visualizing what that is. I guess if I saw how it all fit together originally it would make more sense. I won't have that luxury for another week or so.
You mentioned the locking nature of the nut. Could you explain that in more detail? Also, sorry if these are moronic questions but I have an insatiable need to understand these kind of things at a pretty basic level.
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A picture, or three, is worth a thousand words.
Ask all the questions you want, that is why we started this forum. Soon, you will have all the answers! Lol
If the nuts loosen slightly, there is no chance of the wheel falling out. Pretty slick, if you ask me.
BTW, if you still have that 1948 air breather, I know a really good machinist that will solve your problem in a trade! Shameless plug for KartJockey
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Ok... Now I think I understand. Also, it answers a few other questions I had.
Question 1.
Why on earth is the opening to the rocker on the front for smaller than the opening that the axle fits in.
Answer - The axle nut has a shoulder/sleeve on it that fits between the axle and the rocker when tightened. The diameter of the sleeve on that fits into the rocker is larger than the diameter of the opening to the rocker. That means if the bolt comes loose the wheel will stay secured to the front rocker because the sleeve is larger than the hole the axle has to pass through. As long as the bolt is partially regardless of how loose the wheel will stay on the front forks.
I worked in a place quite a few years back that was built in 1917. They still had a lot of the old equipment and some of it was still used. I was perpetually in awe of some of the clever simple things that were done to make the equipment better. It's really pretty simple to over engineer something. You see it pretty much everywhere you look. To accomplish the same thing in a very simple way in many cases makes it a work of art.
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Hmmmmmm.......
(http://www.dhresource.com/albu_938246978_00/1.0x0.jpg)
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Lug nuts ... Do those have the matching thread pitch to your axles ?
Pete . :)
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I think they actually might. It's a lug nut off of a Toyota. This is almost becoming amusing. Bearings probably from China, Axles from a slovik mini bike and lug nuts off of a toyota might be the answer to the Worksman wheel question.
Not sure how many 11mm pitches they have because I live in the world that is good and right and uses fractions. If there is only 1 size 11mm pitch then they will work. I'm pretty sure the step is too thick for the inside of the rocker.
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I got the bearings and axles in. I didn't tear apart the worksman wheels as soon as I got them. The axle is kind of interesting. It's actually 1/2 between the bearings. The 1/2 in shoulder is what the inner race of the bearings are compressed against when every thing is tightened up. This keeps the compression loads from securing the wheel from affecting the performance of the bearings.
I'm going to have to cut a spacer to make up that piece with the axles I bought. I bought a pipe nipple that fits perfect if you file out the seam on the inside of the pipe. I've been a little ill today so I didn't get to finish it.
Honestly to do this right, you'd need to cut a new axle and use the bearings listed on the last page that I ordered. If you did that you could make it exactly like a simplex axle where it mattered and use the standard nuts. With the axle and bearings this would be a slam dunk and would make fitting this wheel to a simplex effortless. I'm going to draw up what it should look like and try to get one made.
Does anyone have a picture of a front and rear simplex axle they could post with measurements? I want to make sure what I draw ends up being what will work.
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Here is a pair of Wayne's replacement axles. He only makes them in 1 length, 5 9/16". That is a stock simplex front axle length. A stock simplex rear is 6". Wayne says you do not need the extra length for the rear, and as I have used his replacements before, he is somewhat correct. I would rather a little longer for more engagement of the threads.
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Thanks, I guess that makes it easier. I'm confused about something though. I just measured my frame and from inside to inside on the rear dropouts I measured 6 inches. Is my frame spread or do the stepped nuts make up the difference?
As a side note the smaller axle that I ordered will actually work fine with a spacer between the bearings. If you ever pulled the axle out you'd probably have to pull the bearings out and line everything up to install it. It'd be a pain.
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Thanks, I guess that makes it easier. I'm confused about something though. I just measured my frame and from inside to inside on the rear dropouts I measured 6 inches. Is my frame spread or do the stepped nuts make up the difference?
As a side note the smaller axle that I ordered will actually work fine with a spacer between the bearings. If you ever pulled the axle out you'd probably have to pull the bearings out and line everything up to install it. It'd be a pain.
The space between the rear dropouts should be 4 3/4-5". Someone definitely spread your frame. It will probably be easy to squeeze it back together.
Using a spacer between the bearings is common. On a Simplex Automatic transmission, there is such a spacer between the bearings. When you install the bearings, put in the first side, add the spacer, then install the second side, but don't seat it all the way. Use a small rod to line up the spacer and then drive the second bearing in the rest of the way. The spacer will stay in place by friction until you get the axle installed.
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Unless my measurements are off this is the axle dimensions required to use a Worksman 77A wheel on a simplex with minimum modifications. All you need is this axle and a set of bearings, which can be ordered and are readily available. This modification will use the standard simplex front nuts to secure the wheel to the forks.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/Simplex%20Front%20Axle%20V3_zpsj4jdyp3n.jpg)
I haven't had it machined yet but I plan to. Also the program I used didn't have the 7/16 BSC thread in it's database so they aren't shown. Once I have one made I'll let y'all know how it works.
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And be sure not to forget.....Oil bath breather for services rendered! Will supply whatever you need including material etc. I can make the correct nuts to lock into the drop-outs and whatever else it is you need along the way.
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I talked to my buddy with the 3d printer and I found a guy with a scanner. Ill see what it will take to print one and see if you like it. My buddy said he would print them to sell if there was a market and he could make a few dollars. We can see if it's worth it...
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Really just interested in the real McCoy so let me know if you want to strike up a deal. Be fun to do some machine work.
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Thanks for the offer but, I think I'm going to hang on to the air cleaner. The simplex I bought is really in good shape and although it has some mix and match parts it's really pretty complete. I think I'm going to try and go back as original as I can. That other frame that I have needs everything so I might try 3d printing some of the parts out. They can be printed in carbon fiber so they'll be strong enough and with a coat of paint will probably pass muster.
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I'm ashamed it took this long but I seem to have zero spare time to do these things. I don't see how you guys do it.
Anyway... Here is a picture of a Worksman wheel with a simplex axle in it. Also, it's got sealed bearings that fit. The only thing I have left to do it drill out the hole in the drum brake assy to accept the larger axle and get a few 7/16-26 BSC jam nuts to hold it all together. Effectively, it's a "bolt in" replacement wheel. I've got the rear axle as well and I need to do the rear wheel. I need to make sure everything "centers" when mounted but it looks OK with my eyeball.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z32/eitek1/IMG_0954_zpseyfnxj0l.jpg) (http://s188.photobucket.com/user/eitek1/media/IMG_0954_zpseyfnxj0l.jpg.html)
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PRIORITIES. You just need to explain to your boss that this work "thing" is cutting into your "personal time" at home. I'm sure he'll understand.