General Category => Simplexes with Non-Original Engines => Topic started by: carryall on August 03, 2016, 07:57:44 AM
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I'll ask again since nobody answered...Might have been busy getting ready for Portland, etc...Does anyone/everyone ever experience a slight rattle noise from there engine clutch (series 30) while either "at idle" and/or during engagement? With the new muffler packing, my bike is actually pretty quite while running, so I may just be being too picky and fixated on it. You know how that can be I'm sure...I'm working on a solution.
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They all rattle a little, from what I have experienced. Have you noticed any difference between the Comet and the China version?
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"They all rattle a little, from what I have experienced."
Same here . That being many years past . So , they must not have changed design much .
Pete . :)
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I'm taking them to my buddy who runs a machine shop to measure them up and see what exactly the tolerances are. Then I'm looking into a couple theories to possibly decrease the tolerances and thus reduce the rattle issue. 1st option/theory is possibly coating the bushing via hard chrome or some type of plating. 2nd option, maybe just shimming with shim stock? Gotta make a couple calls and/or stop in to places I've found and/or dealt with to see what they can do for me...Not a big deal but, if it could be done relatively cheap/easy, why not??? Always nice to improve and/or customize. Not to mention I REALLY need something to occupy my time since being out of work.
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I wonder what a bit of spray bed liner on the inside 'wall' of the bell would do . Or , a thin plastic layer .
It shouldn't wear as there should be very little contact , if any . It might just take up some of the side play , reducing rattle .
Just thinking of possibilities ...
Pete . :)
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YEP...My first thought was right along that line. I talked with a powder-coating guy and asked about the latest spray/bake PC's and if they have something that would be relatively abrasion resistant and take 175 degrees or so? Still going to investigate that avenue, along with spray on Ceramic coatings???
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After some running around and research, decided to try shims. This clutch (new one) I ended up using .002-.003 brass shim stock. Took a while to figure out how to prevent the shims from shifting/moving in order to prevent them possibly interfering with free movement of the belt bushing. I'll install and run it tomorrow and see. As the shim stock conforms to the radius of the bushing, it'll loosen up a bit I'm guessing? Might work?
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Hmm, I guess we'll find out .
Pete . :)
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WOW...What a difference. You don't realize how much noise it really makes, till it's gone!!! Not a rattle or noise from it now, either at idle or engagement. One other source of "rattle noise" is the sloppy "gap tolerance between the bushings keyway and the slot in the crankshaft. I did a quick fix with some Teflon tape for now, but later I might build it up with silver solder and fit it properly. (Didn't want to locktite or epoxy for future disassembly) I'd recommend checking/fixing the keyway/crank tolerance first, then work from there, if it "bothers you". Or just having a louder exhaust than mine also solves the problem.
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Way to chase down the issue! If the noise starts to bother me, I may do the same. Thanks for taking the time to post the solution here for everyone's benefit.
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Good deal . Now you'll be better able to sneak up on ...
Anyway , I like quiet machinery , too . Let's me think that it's not coming apart , anytime soon . ;)
Pete . :)
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No problem. I know the site is especially useful to guys who are restoring bikes to "original condition" for technical and reference needs, etc. But since I don't have a Servi motor, Figured I'd post what my repairs and modifications are, for future reference and, to contribute something back to the website. (BTW, I'm thinking of using some glass bedding (steel-bed from Brownells) I have left over from a long range rifle build. Incredibly tough stuff that I think should work just as well, and be alot easier than trying to preheat, flux, file and pencil torch inside the bushing. Suppose JB weld would work also)
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How about getting a thicker key to better fit the bushing and down size the 'belly' to fit the crankshaft .
Pete . :)
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I wish it would be that easy. The 3/16" key is machined into/part of the bushing, and then slides into the machined slot on the crank, like the engine side half of the clutch. (Check out the pic of the inside clutch housing with the bushing in it) It was machined under-sized, because I checked with a new 3/16" key and that fit really snug!
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I see . I should have caught that .
So , maybe a slice or two of that brass shim stock in the crank key way ?
Pete . :)
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I tried that. Just too tight...Just couldn't get one to "stay put" in either the back clam shell, or the bushing itself. (Hard to "force a tiny piece of .002-.003 brass in such a tight gap) SO...I ended up brushing a super light coat of that bedding mix on both pieces, and let it semi-harden/cure... Enough to stay adhered... but yet soft enough to allow me to "tap" it on (and eventually off) the shaft with a small mallet. (I used thin coat of oil on crankshaft as "mold release" so it wouldn't adhere) After it fully cured/hardened, I gave it a "mist" of high temp paint (1200degree) over the "bedding" to finish. Figured that would take up any remaining tolerance and fill any "low spots". Can't get any tighter fit than it is now, without it being permanently attached.
On the subject of clutches, one other tip I have is...IF you end up with a "generic clutch" with the hard-chrome finish, I recommend taking a scotchbrite pad to the belt faces. (both sides) After dipping they have way too smooth of a surface, and evidently it causes a bit of slipping and thus heat. After my first long ride when new, it (clutch and belt) got really hot! Hotter than the original Comet that was on it FOR SURE. After I took the "shine" off it with a scotchbrite pad, it was noticeably much cooler and had better, more positive engagement also. Should help both the belt and clutch life in the long run.
Lot of work for a minor issue on a $30 part but, WTH, it's an improvement/solution to something that bugged me when riding.
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" Lot of work for a minor issue on a $30 part ... "
But , now you have something that lowers your stress level . ;)
R & D is fun , isn't it ?
Pete . :)
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YEP...R&D...Ride and dis-assemble? LOL. Test ride was great, and it's 75 and sunny... don't get any nicer than that! Off to the beach. Showed 9yr old grandson how to snorkel, and now can't keep him out of the lake.
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Ha . Ride and dis-assemble has been a way of life for me and my '57 .
Good you're showing the boy another 'side' of life . It's a whole different world below the surface . Lots to see and learn .
Pete . :)
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Really nice quality pair of patches I decided to use on my saddlebags.
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That almost looks like it's suppose to be there . ;)
Pete . :)
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That was the idea anyways. I was worried they wouldn't hold to the rough leather but, seems the glue "soaked in" to it really well. I was prepared to sew them using a vise grip needle nose pliers but, we'll see if it's needed...Should look O.K. matching the tank decal.
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If you do have to reattach them , consider using fabric cement or even jell type super glue .
Both hold well to rough , porous materials .
Pete . :)
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Thanks PD, matter of fact, I decided to pull them and possibly re-locate them a bit higher on the bottom of the bags, and will need to glue them if I do.
BTW, I finally got a PTFE adhesive tape from 3M I am going to try for quieting the clutch via UPS yesterday. It's really expensive stuff but they were nice enough to send me a sample roll of each thickness. 3M5490 & 3M5491 are good to 500degrees and are used to stop squeaks and rattles on conveyer lines, rollers, etc...Installed it on the bushing and the raised ramps on the weight pack, and then started it last night when finished. Absolutely quiet. See how long it puts up with the abrasion action.
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Did you take a picture of this modification?
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I tried, but it was almost impossible to see the tape once applied on the bushing. I applied it on the 1/2 moon shaped guides, and then a strip in the center in-between. I had to use the 3M5490 because it is 3.7mil. The 3M5491 was too thick. Big "shout out" to the 3M sales rep who helped me out and sent me these sample rolls to try out FREE! This stuff is really expensive and only available thru a few speciality retailers.
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Thanks Paul. I am interested in seeing how it holds up. Please keep us up to date as you put some miles on it.
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Shall do. Since I've been out of work, I bet I've put well over 50 miles on the Servi just in the last month or so. Works great for hunting Pokema!!! I putt from park to park with it around town. On the subject of "holding up", I have to say my tires are still looking like new.
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I checked the 3M tape on the clutch hub and so far, so good! Question tho...wondering about the spacer used on the outside of the clutch cover used as a spacer behind the bolt and washer. (I assume that's its purpose) Why, or under what circumstances would the notch for keyway on the outer perimeter come into play? (see pic of spacer upper left)
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Hmm , Purely guessing here , but maybe that's to creat a bit of off balance to make things wear faster ?
I really have no idea , Paul . Sorry .
Pete . :)
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I did forget to install it one time, and just used the bolt and washer. Almost disaster! The next time I pulled the clutch, I noticed that the bolt had bent slightly. Glad it didn't break off in the crank!
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Found another great use for the 3M PTFE tape. Throttle tube to handlebar contact. Super smooth/slippery and takes up a little "slop" between the two surfaces.
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Ya had to use that roll of tape somehow , Paul . ;)
Pete . :)
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It's right up there with... ;D duct tape IMHO. LOL
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Whoa ... Now that's makin' quite a statement . :o
I have to ask : which color duct tape ? ;)
I read on the internet that the silver is only good to about 25 MPH , where the black is still holding strong at 150 . ::)
Pete . :)
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WHOA there...the leading expert of Duct Tape (aka Red Green) has proven the merits and wide applications of our OEM silver repair on a roll. Your reference to this "Black Tape" and claims, leads me to believe you have your hands on our militaries secret "100 MPH tape. I caution you that both the TSA and other National Security agencies may be monitoring our discussions, and as such, not to be confused with or revealed on public forums. I was only pointing out the 3M tape #3490 will withstand 500 degrees and uses PTFE technology in addition, to perform its significant reduction to abrasion, heat resistance, and ability to adhere in .002mil thickness, compared to the afore mentioned OEM SILVER substrate and repair on a roll. Besides, 25MPH would be fine on a stock ServiCycle. LOL
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Agreed . Red Green has definitely put ol' silver to the test , in more ways than I would have .
Mums the word on any secret stuff . And , it sounds like that 3M is decent enough to have a bit laying around for what ever .
As for the rather tacky silver being fine for a stock ServiCycle , I have to disagree , unless there's no alternative .
And , when my stock bike runs , it'll do a lot faster than 25 . 8)
Pete . :)
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I know....Just jerking your chain little bit. LOL. It's really too bad the original engines weren't of a better design/quality tho. I personally would have gone "original" if it would have been easier to find engines and/or parts so it could be ridden regularly without worries. Just one of the pros/cons of old, rare, or obscure vehicles. Like restoring my old Hondas, it came down to availability and price of OEM parts vs collectability prices and personal tastes.
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I figured as much and thought I'd just play along . Nothin' better to do for the time being . :D
I've been trying to get my OEM motor to run for more than 10 minutes at a time for the last 4 summers . I might be getting close . I figure just about the time I do , it'll be time to rebuild the motor , again . LOL
Pete . :)
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Or at least the drill your using to spin it with? LOL That engine of yours would drive me nuts. Something as simple as a rudimentary 2 stroke engine being so frustratingly difficult to "go". Kudos to your patience
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Thanks . Patience is something I seem to have plenty of . Too bad I can't sell some and maybe fund a different motor . ;)
Pete . :)
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I found this high quality stainless spring in an old alarm clock that was .003 thick. I cut strips and installed them as shims in my spare clutch and installed it on the bike. Because of the shape, it maintains slight pressure on the bushing and so far seems to work. I'll need to do a test run, being careful in case it prevents the clutch from returning back to the neutral position but, so far it seems to work when I go from idle to where it starts to engage, and then back to neutral... in my house LOL. If it doesn't work, I still have plenty of magic tape anyways.
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I'm sure Alexander Graham Bell's first phone didn't work 'perfectly' . If that's any consolation . ;)
Pete . :)
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It was such a beautiful day today, (68 and sunny) I had to take the Servi out for a cruise and, test ride the new clutch modification. Worked perfect even after approx. 5 miles of high speed runs and very slow engagements. I'll run it another 10miles or so and then dis-assemble and check it but, I think I've found the long term solution to the noise issue. YA. The new seat was also much more comfy.
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Sounds ( none ) like it might be a winner, Paul . ;)
Pete . :)
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Well, I went and visited a local plating shop and left a bushing and the shell it fits into with the owners son to nickel plate and see if he could get it to fit tighter with build-up of just nickel. When he called me to pick it up, he showed me how it fit tight in a couple places but a bit loose in another. (remember it can fit/rotate in 4 separate ways) I buffed it down and gave it a shot of dry lube and installed. WOW. it is really quiet and engages almost too quickly. My guess is between the super slick nickel and dry lube and the reduced tolerance, it's more a bearing now. LOL I filled in the holes in my exhaust so the bike is really quite now also. I'm hoping to test drive it up to full speed soon to make sure the clutch doesn't hang up and returns to normal but, riding it in my basement it seems to function normal and noiselessly. If it does, I'll probably have my other clutch bushing plated also and have one as a spare or alternative depending on it's function. The plating only cost me $20 and I may have them do the headlight trim ring at the same time.
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Well, I went and visited a local plating shop and left a bushing and the shell it fits into with the owners son to nickel plate and see if he could get it to fit tighter with build-up of just nickel. When he called me to pick it up, he showed me how it fit tight in a couple places but a bit loose in another. (remember it can fit/rotate in 4 separate ways) I buffed it down and gave it a shot of dry lube and installed. WOW. it is really quiet and engages almost too quickly. My guess is between the super slick nickel and dry lube and the reduced tolerance, it's more a bearing now. LOL I filled in the holes in my exhaust so the bike is really quite now also. I'm hoping to test drive it up to full speed soon to make sure the clutch doesn't hang up and returns to normal but, riding it in my basement it seems to function normal and noiselessly. If it does, I'll probably have my other clutch bushing plated also and have one as a spare or alternative depending on it's function. The plating only cost me $20 and I may have them do the headlight trim ring at the same time.
That's so you won't alarm the neighbors when you do a 2 AM sleep ride ? ;)
Quiet is the best form of self defense as it allows us to hear an angry cager trying to run us into the ditch . :o
And , it's a lot easier on my ears .
Pete . :)
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It was a very nice visit to the plating business. They are relatively small, and do mostly "one-off" and short run jobs for car and bike guys. They are partnered with a polishing shop next door also. He took the time to show me the different process they use like the copper plating, nickel and chrome tanks along with various materials they can prep to do. They run a very clean and organized shop and have a couple guys who specialize in nothing but repairing various metals with welding, brazing, and straightening/fixing parts before finish product goes to plating.
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It was a very nice visit to the plating business. They are relatively small, and do mostly "one-off" and short run jobs for car and bike guys. They are partnered with a polishing shop next door also. He took the time to show me the different process they use like the copper plating, nickel and chrome tanks along with various materials they can prep to do. They run a very clean and organized shop and have a couple guys who specialize in nothing but repairing various metals with welding, brazing, and straightening/fixing parts before finish product goes to plating.
Paul ,
That sounds like the kind of shop we would want to add to our resource list . We do have a list like that , right ?
Anyway , maybe you could share contact info with us ?
And , if they have a web site address ?
Thanks ,
Pete . :)
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Certainly. The owners name is John, and his company is jrcustomplating.com located in North Branch, Minnesota. Like I said, they do mostly small quantities and "one-off" pieces for bikes, cars, vintage snowmobiles, etc. Like I mentioned, I think I'm going to do another clutch bushing set (provided test ride at full throttle goes as planned) and then also have him look at the headlight trim ring I have which has a couple small "dings/dents" that he could work out of the stainless and have it plated just to add a bit of Shine to the headlight bucket. My fishtail exhaust might be another chrome plating job in the future also but, I'm not sure about it as of yet... Little update on the clutch mod test drive. SMOOTH as glass, and not a sound. Much more responsive to light throttle changes it seems too. Now there's nothing to hear but the purr of the exhaust.
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Thanks for sharing that addy , Paul .
By the looks of the pieces they've done , you weren't lying . :)
That one is being added to my resource list .
Dang , now you won't have anything to pick at , being as that thing is so quiet . Hope you don't get too bored . :D
Pete . :)
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I know. If I do any more, it'll start looking like a "Shriners bike" LOL. Just to taunt you on how well the engine is running, after it was warmed up from riding, I tried an old trick I'd do on well tuned mopeds where I was able to start (with slight choke) the bike just by rolling my foot over the clutch like the kick start. HA, it started once.
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I know. If I do any more, it'll start looking like a "Shriners bike" LOL. Just to taunt you on how well the engine is running, after it was warmed up from riding, I tried an old trick I'd do on well tuned mopeds where I was able to start (with slight choke) the bike just by rolling my foot over the clutch like the kick start. HA, it started once.
I know what you mean . The Shriners may wear those funny hats , but from what I hear , they do a lot of good for the handicapped kids .
And as for your breath on it and it starts motor , well , I'm envious and jealous . ;)
Pete . :)
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I had an uncle that was very involved as a Shriner, and he and his group all rode various vintage scooters with all sorts of glittery stuff and decorations to parades all over the area to support their medical funds. Shriners hospital for children and families. They practiced all the time doing the figure eight and various routines. Some other teams used go-carts if I remember correctly too.
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I had an uncle that was very involved as a Shriner, and he and his group all rode various vintage scooters with all sorts of glittery stuff and decorations to parades all over the area to support their medical funds. Shriners hospital for children and families. They practiced all the time doing the figure eight and various routines. Some other teams used go-carts if I remember correctly too.
Whatever it takes to gain attention . ;)
Pete . :)