General Category => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: Mike Sal on February 19, 2012, 03:17:15 PM
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I went ahead & pulled the tranny off & apart today (still haven't received my parts from Wayne....been over a week....I'll try to call again tomorrow)
It's built quite a bit different than the one soon in the manuals posted on the site, as well as those shown in Rick's restoration photos. The 2 governor weights are larger & solid steel & ride in 2 full length "cam guide" brackets instead of two smaller parts. Also, they used bushings instead of bearings for the clutch hub.
The "fixed" side of the variable pulley (on the output pulley) didn't want to come off the "shaft" after I removed the spiral snap ring & it didn't want to come when I pushed on it a little bit with the hydraulic press. I was afraid of breaking it, so I stopped. Whats the secret of getting it off? I'd like to polish the shaft that the moveable part of the pulley rides on.
Mike Sal
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That is the later style "twin track" clutch. I think they started with those in 1954. To get the pulley off, just heat it with a propane torch. The aluminum will expand and slide right off. Goes on the same way.
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The thing I can't figure out is how you were supposed to lubricate the bushing & tube/shaft area of the clutch hub There is a small hole in the tube (the hollow shaft that the bearings are pressed into) which looks like it would be a place for lubrication to pass (it's about halfway down the shaft, where it's out of sight), but there no visible source for oil or grease to come from. I wonder if that big thick felt washer is supposed to "catch" grease from getting to the brake shoes or if it's supposed to be greased so oil can wick out of it & into the bushing joint.
Mike Sal
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Neither of the clutches I rebuilt had that felt washer. I wonder if it was added later. I will check my parts diagram when I get home from work.
I just polished the shaft and put it together with a tiny bit of grease. I felt if you put to much grease or oil on, it would cause belt slippage. The weights get oiled at the rollers.
Rick
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That felt washer is about 1/2 inch thick & you can see that it has caught some grease that was flung out of the joint. it appears it just does touch the end of the clutch hub.
Mike Sal
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Mike, I just looked in the books that I have and they don't show that style clutch. It must have been a late addition. My twin track clutch from 1954 uses bearings on the fixed pulley side, just like my 1953 single track clutch does. Maybe simplex figured bearings were not necessary because the shoes engage at a relatively low rpm?
Rick
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I think the lessen is to not set around idling very much. With limited access to lubricate the bushings, I think you'd want to limit the time that the clutch isn't locked up.
Mike Sal
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I'd agree. You don't want to idle too long with these motors anyway!
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My Simplex has the twin track clutch too. I have not tried to disasemble it yet . it turns freely . Is there a need to disasemble it ? Also my Simplex does not have a stock motor, I am useing a Honda GC160 to power it. What do you think of using a jackshaft to get the power to the right side and then using the same stock twin track in the stock configuration for the rest of the drive train ?
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Bill,
I'm a fan of keeping as much original equipment as possible, so that's what I'd do (running a jackshaft).
I didn't really think that I needed to pull mine apart either, but the parts needed to be cleaned & repainted. I'm glad I did, because I found that what I thought was a nearly new set of brake shoes was in fact about 1/3 worn down (the shoes weren't running totally inside the drum, which left the outside edge not touching anything, giving the appearance that they were not worn). There's still over 1/16" before the rivets would be be exposed, but I'm going to replace them if I can ever get ahold of Wayne.
Mike Sal
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I got most of the bike torn apart I need to take time to make a list of the things I need for this project before I go to much farther. I am going to check the twin track clutch in a few days, what do you think the thickness of the friction material would be if it was new?
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Bill, the un-worn edge of the friction material measures 3/16". The worn side measures .140". There's .070 worth of material left before the rivets touch the drum.
Mike Sal
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Mike sent me this picture that shows the fiber washer he was talking about. I wonder what year that diagram is from, as the earlier books don't show that part number.
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This image came from the "Simplex Automatic Motorscooter" owners manual & parts catalog that Adam Wollard sent to me (it's a reproduction). I see that it's not in our "manuals & such" section, so I'll get it all scanned & submitted. It's 14 pages long. I assume it's from 57 (?) or so, as it only shows this transmission and it only shows the Phelon magneto, and it shows the 150cc parts.
Notice in the image above that the transmission hanger isn't a horseshoe like on the motorbikes.
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Got my tranny back together after some cleaning and paint all the parts appear to be good ,while remounting in the horseshoe bracket ,i thought I was missing a spacer after looking back at my before pics there was no missing spacer the bracket spreads when bolt is removed then tighten back in to place . I think i should be good to go!
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Pic
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Hmmm. I see something curious. Your bike is most probably a '57, but your idler pulley is a solid type (w/ bearing I assume). The parts catalog I have (from '56 or '57) shows the 2 piece sheet metal idler pulley replacing the solid one. My bike, which is earlier than yours, has the 2 piece one. I guess it's entirely possible that one, or both of our bikes have had replacement pulleys installed over the years It's a pretty small bearing.
Mike Sal
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I just glass beaded my pulleys. Do you guys apply any type of clear overcoat paint on them to keep them from oxidizing?
Mike Sal
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I did clearcoat aluminum parts on a 59 apache truck seems to hold up good
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Ok, here's another question. The return springs in my transmission are about a 1/4 inch shorter than the ones on the rear brake shoes......even thou they have the same part number according to all of the parts catalogs. Anybody have any ideas? Now I'm not sure which spring is correct for the transmission clutch. Both springs are of the same construction, so I don't think the previous owner swapped in something different.
Mike Sal
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Here is a measurement on one of my brake springs,I have clutch back together already I didn't notice a difference ,but never layed them out together
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Finally remembered to measure & photograph the different springs on my rig. I'm pretty sure the short ones were in the transmission & the long ones were in the brakes, but my memory is getting fuzzy.....
Anyway, I'm wondering which is correct for transmission? The parts catalogs say it's the same spring for both, but which length is correct?
Mike Sal
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Talked to Wayne today & he says only the earlier bikes used 2 different springs for brake & transmission. This plays into my suspicion that my rear wheel isn't original to the bike (the hub had a lot of rust pits while the rest of the bike have virtually no rust and the springs are 1/2 inch longer than the tranny springs).
Mike Sal
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Mike, after seeing the pics of your longer springs iam sure I didn't have any like those . It is a pretty noticeable difference.
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I was concerned about it, as I think the length & quality of the clutch springs has to affect the engagement speed of the clutch. You don't want too early or too late engagement.
Mike Sal
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maybe you guys should just trade pulleys ! ;D
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Hey guys Jeremy here could someone tell me if I need a spaced here belt doesn't line up just right rubs on inside case , thanks
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Jeremy, according to the parts diagram posted on the previous page, it says you need a washer, part #3354.
Would I be correct in assuming the bearing ID for the fixed pulley is 10mm and fits right on the axle shaft? The reason I ask, is when I replaced my bearings the hole was 17mm. I thought I had the wrong bearing but when I went to look at the clutch on my 54 it has machined spacers inside and out. (Pictures below) I made another one for my 53 and all is good. I could not find this part in any manual, so I'm not sure if it is stock or not. Anybody?
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Rick, iam pretty sure my hole in the bearing was the bolt size unless I didn't notice the bushing/spaces I never messed with that bearing, I answered my own question after looking at that diagram I put a washer in there that I had laying around belt clears but is very close.
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it sorta looks like everything (including the pulley on the crank) need to shift to the left a little doesn't it.
I'll have to look in my baggy-o-parts to see what washers/spacers I have. I just slid the axle & everything into a bag when I took it apart & haven't cleaned those parts up yet.
Mike Sal
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Yeah, unsure of that at the moment nothing is rubbing now but if you think of a potential problem let me know.
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It's
me again ,,, on the clutch / transmission , there was a 10 millimeter shaft with a 3/8 ths fine thread end to accomidate the metric size of the ball bearing same on the crankshaft ( 25 mm i.d.) clever use of the available use of "off the shelf items " and engineering "fudges " (kinda like poetic license ) made me scratch my head till i figured out not to take things too serously as far as what I thought was the way stuff was suppused to be ,, I used a medium thickness 10 millimeter flat washer on mine ,,, Nice work you are doing, It looks like it will pay off well , Take care Larry.
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Jeremy, could you please post a picture of the outside fixed pulley side? My 2 clutches do not use the bushings like yours and have bearings. I'd like to see the differences.
Thanks,
Rick
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If Jeremy still has his put together, I can post a pic tonight, as mine is still in pieces.
Mike Sal
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Here is mine before assembly
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Thanks. I See that your bearing fits right on the shaft. I am not sure if my spacers are stock or not.
Rick
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Here's a shot of the back side of the same type pulley. There are actually 2 bushings inside, one narrower than the other (probably cheaper than one long bushing).
Yes Rick, there's only 2 ball bearings in this style....one in each end of the center section of the tranny. There's a long spacer tube inside that's between the 2 bearings so that when you tighten up the axle nuts, you dont side load the bearing races.
Mike Sal
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Thanks Mike. Mine has the same 2 bearings with spacer on the variable pulley side. Where it differs is the fixed pulley side has no bushing, just 1 bearing and those spacers I posted earlier.
Rick
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Hey guys, Looking for a trade, My Automatic Transmission for a complet Front brake assembly. This is a picture of the Transmission . Pulled it off of the bike as an unit did not take it apart, Turns freely. It is looking for a new home. Bill Marcum 8)
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Mike what kind of lube do you use on transmissions with the bashing like that. My Brothers bike keeps getting stiff when its not ran for awhile?
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I used the pink bearing grease when I put it together (we used it for the waterpump bearings we made where I work). We'll see how it performs.
Mike Sal
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Pretty much same grease here ,,, a drop or two of motor oil on the clutch bushing when I check the tires
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Finally remembered to measure & photograph the different springs on my rig. I'm pretty sure the short ones were in the transmission & the long ones were in the brakes, but my memory is getting fuzzy.....
Anyway, I'm wondering which is correct for transmission? The parts catalogs say it's the same spring for both, but which length is correct?
Mike Sal
Mike ,
I believe you're correct about the shorter springs being for the transmission .
Here's a pic of the springs from my transmission shoes :
(https://s26.postimg.org/tm3tttzft/screenshot_24.png)
Just mussing here , but I have to wonder why none of either pair of your pictured springs are the same . Both pair have different count of coils , spring to spring . To me that says that neither spring of either pair has the same tension as the other within either pair . I would think that that wouldn't be much of an issue for the brakes as the springs simply hold the shoes in place . The transmission might be a bit more critical and seemingly would effect at what RPM the shoes engage the drum . Does anyone know what the ideal engagement RPM should be ? I'm thinking not . Likely , as long as the point of engagement provides a relatively smooth transition from dead stop to full , non-slipping , engagement .
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I have a connection with a spring company (thru work) & once I finally get my bike running, if I'm not happy with the engagement of the clutch, I'm going to have them wind up a few variations for me. I have a sneaky feeling that I won't be able to tell much difference just be the way our bikes are designed.
Mike Sal
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I agree with you Mike. I have used some that I believe to be simplex, some replacements from Wayne and some hardware store ones, all with the same results. All work just fine.
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Rick ,
Thinking farther , the transmission has more than one variable . So , a shortcoming on one would likely be 'made up' by the other , to a point . Probably why slight variations of tension are not noticed .
I'm still gonna run the OEM springs in my transmission . ;)
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Just a note. The transmission on my 1953 locked up today. I thought maybe it was a bearing. As I was disassembling it, I noticed that the fixed sheave, which it heated to put on and off, had moved out and locked up against the tensioner bracket! On the very early transmissions, there is no other mechanical means of attachment. I guess that is why they machined a groove on the later ones for a snap ring! I just heated mine and tapped it back to the proper position. I then let it cool and added Loc-tite Green, which is made for penetrating already installed fasteners. We shall see if it holds. If not, I guess I will have to have a groove machined on mine.
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Rick ,
Maybe you need to add a little air scoop to help cool that sheave . Wouldn't take much and it could be mounted using the main transmission bolt . It would hardly be noticeable .
Pete . :)