General Category => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: Scooter4 on April 23, 2022, 03:49:45 PM
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Good evening,
I have a Wico magneto that will not produce spark when the kick starter is used or the flywheel is spun by hand with the spark plugs out. I have tested with plugs, with one wire grounded. The wires are copper core and I have also tested it with short wires.
It has a nice spark when turned with a drill and will start and run.
It has a new (aftermarket) coil I tested at 1.3 ohm primary and about 9,000 ohm secondary. It has new points gapped at .018 and I tried other settings. It has a new (aftermarket) condenser I tested at .2 micro farad and I tried others with no difference.
The flywheel seems to have enough magnetism, but I do not have another running Simplex that has Wico to compare. The air gap between the laminates and flywheel is about .010, so that should be close enough.
Has anyone else experienced this? Or have any ideas?
Please let me know.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Sounds exactly like what I had/have .
Everything seems good , but ...
I'm pretty sure that the magnets on my flywheel are less than what they should be .
I've tried to strengthen them by slowly passing a microwave doughnut magnet over them . But , It's not apparent if that actually helped .
Anyway , I found that condensers make a difference , even if they seem to test good .
I'm currently using an EP30 from NAPA . It has a different physical attaching point than 'stock' . I mount it under the steering 'plate' , next to the switch .
Be aware that new condensers and spark plugs can be bad right out of the box . The EP30 I'm running is the second one from NAPA . The first was dead when I took it out of the box .
And , I've found that resistor spark plugs seem to require more juice to spark .
I'm currently running an NGK 3419 Iridium plug . Sparks easier .
I plan to remove the resistor in the 3419 to make it non-resistor and spark even better .
With those^ two improvements , I'm able to start the motor with the kick starter .
Prior , it required a drill .
Good luck . These can be fickle .
Pete . :)
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Did you rebuild the motor? What’s your compression? Need some more info.
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Good afternoon,
Thank you for the replies. I have done some more reading regarding condensers and found a Wico spec sheet for that and the range should be .16 to .2uf so I am going to get a .16uf capacitor for it. I read more on magneto design to learn the effect of capacitance with those systems. I will let you know how that goes.
I did take the motor apart originally and clean it up, but did not replace the piston and rings. I have not checked compression because it has enough to run and I may get to that after I resolve the low speed spark problem.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Hard starting is a sign of bad rings. Did you replace the crank seal when you put it back together?
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Thank you for the reply.
You are right about the fit of the rings and piston to be a problem. Once I get the ignition issue fixed to have enough spark to be able to kick start it, I will be able to try kicking it.
I just ordered a .15uf capacitor and will try it and let you know how it goes.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Good evening,
I have replaced the reproduction .22 micro farad condenser with a Panasonic film capacitor .15 micro farad 630 volt DC and have good spark now turning the flywheel by hand. I have been using Panasonic capacitors for years on other types of magnetos I work on with great results.
You can use other brands. I read on a magneto rebuild business site that they use EVOX RIFA: PME271M. Dont let the 271 volt bother you, it is AC and will work with the higher DC voltages.
If you have trouble, perhaps you can try the lower micro farad capacitor like I did.
Good luck.
Scooter
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Are you concerned about vibration breaking the wires off the condenser? I think I would make a small mounting strap.
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Good information , thanks for that .
About Ricks concern , maybe a dab of silicone under the capacitor would be secure enough .
And , that cap can be mounted anywhere on the bike , as long as it's wired correctly .
I have the capacitor on my '57 mounted next to the ignition switch , under the handlebar plate .
It works just as good there as under the flywheel . Maybe better because it stays cooler ???
And , it is a lot easier to get to when needed .
Its shell has rusted , just like the switches , so it's not real noticeable , unless you look for it . ;)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvXxVbkP/Simplex-condenser-001.jpg)
Pete . :)
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Good morning,
I bet you are right about the vibration concern. If I were driving it back and forth to work I probably would have been more conscience about it. I can fix it while I have the engine apart addressing the wore out piston and rings. It could make enough compression to start with a drill, but I doubt it would kick start. I have not even tried. I have learned not to wear out the kick starter stuff and just get engines up and running with a drill first. Unless of course everything seems to be in great condition from the beginning and I knew this was in bad shape.
Thank you,
Scooter
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I have always had success with the Megafire electrionic ignition module. It replaces both points and condensor and has to be installed as if the engine has a positive ground. About $15 at Amazon. It may not be stock, but it is sure nicely hidden away.
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Good evening,
I got the motor back together with great crankcase pressure and great compression after the bore work and new piston, but I am back to spark problems.
I did some reading and found the magneto website I have purchase parts from has an article about crummy made reproduction twin coils and I bet this is one of them since I bought it back in 2016. I cant find the receipt to see who I got it from.
I think it is arcing across the internal insulation.
Does anyone know of a source for a single cylinder coil known to fit and work on the Wico mag? I am ready to buy one.
Please let me know.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Good evening,
I got the motor back together with great crankcase pressure and great compression after the bore work and new piston, but I am back to spark problems.
I did some reading and found the magneto website I have purchase parts from has an article about crummy made reproduction twin coils and I bet this is one of them since I bought it back in 2016. I cant find the receipt to see who I got it from.
I think it is arcing across the internal insulation.
Does anyone know of a source for a single cylinder coil known to fit and work on the Wico mag? I am ready to buy one.
Please let me know.
Thank you,
Scooter
I'm sure Wayne would have good replacements .
Optionally , I bet a coil from a Johnson Evinrude Outboard would work .
Cheap enough : https://sawzillaparts.com/proline-ignition-coil-for-johnson-evinrude-outboard-584477/
I ran an early '50s Evinrude coil in my Phelon magneto for a bit and ran the same coil on my Suzuki FA50 until I rec'd a replacement .
I just pulled the coil off the original core and put it on the Phelon core . It worked .
Mounted on my FA50 :
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn5d04Gj/screenshot-54.png)
Pete . :)
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Wat to go Pete! Anything to keep it going.
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Cushman 6V Wico coil. Just hook up one spark plug lead, leave the other unattached. I have run at least a 1/2 dozen Simplex’s that way. Cheap too!
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Thanks Tom . ;) It amazes and pleases me sometimes what works .
I have two wires running to the plugs , but , only one is 'live' . The other has both ends 'insulated' with no connections to anything , just pushed into the plug boot for looks . Heck , that plug isn't even functional . It has no ground strap/tang or functional core .
Pete . :)
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Thank you for the replies,
Cushman 6V sounds great. I will let magneto guy know because I sent him a question this morning if he had one that would fit and the pictures and dimension.
The Cushman 6V is easy to find.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Finally, some good news!
I got the 6v Cushman coil today and it works great. Fair enough spark turning by hand and kick starts easily. I even switched back to the reproduction condenser just to be fair for experimenting and it works equally well. Thank you for telling me about the coil.
I have bought a lot of coils over the years and this is the first time I had a new one that measured proper but failed to work. I am guessing it was arcing internally. What a waste of my time and probably $100 for that twin. I dont have the receipt anymore.
I was worried the Cushman coil was not going to work because the primary resistance is very low.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Good evening,
I drove the K model today and it runs great! It is always a joy to resurrect something.
I really enjoy riding a Simplex. I have not driven one since 1995 when I restored an H and an M for a friend. I did my M at the same time, but have never started it because the throttle tube is missing. I will make one soon.
I am surprised at how fast it goes in low. I bet it can go at least 20 mph. I checked the belts and pulleys and they are as far as they can go to get the lowest speed. The pulley is all the way to make the motor belt ride as high in the groove as possible and the final belt is riding as low in the pulley as it can. I does have reasonable power though on flat.
I still have a lot to do before I will take it back apart to paint. I need to consider finding some correct parts because I have the wrong tail light, kicker, flywheel cover and seat pan.
I have been grateful for your help.
Thank you,
Scooter
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Excellent . We love it when another Simplex 'graces' the streets . ;)
Pete . :)
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I have recently experienced the same issue of no spark at kick rpm. My 48 has a Wico model FW 1278B as per the original operation and maintenance manual that came with the bike. I replaced the original condenser (brass barrel) that was going soft with a OReilly part number DR60. This along with filing and resetting the points, did the trick. Nice bright blue 'snaps' on both plugs now! It is true that Wico made mags for Evenrude and Johnson outboards so, I imagine those coils would work if the original is failing. IMO, resistors serve no purpose in a spark plug or end cap other than to suppress RF noise and can only make for a 'colder' spark. I never used them in my flat track bikes.
In my case...the now intermittent spark is being caused by worn out bearings allowing the mainshaft and cam to wobble enough to upset things so I plan a top down engine refresh. ***something I cant understand is why I couldnt get a reading on the secondary coils(s) but they work!! Bad Meter??
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Good evening,
not a bad meter, but an open in the secondary windings. It is going bad somewhere in there. Run it till it wont. The Cushman coil the others recommended I buy was cheap and works great it you need to replace it. But mark which plug wire you connect it to so you will know when you have to trouble shoot.
Good luck,
Scooter