General Category => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: old servi on August 11, 2013, 04:13:34 PM
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Do you have the thickness size of the bearing that sets in the Mag plate on the M engine. Bearing is on the crank and just back of the point breaker cam. This bearing is thicker than the bearing for the H engine. Or better than that, the bearing number.
Thanks for your time.
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They used 2 different bearings. Both are 40mm OD x 17 ID. One is 12mm thick, the other is 17.5mm. I run the 17.5mm size in both of my model m engines. I just disassembled a late Model M on a sportsman that used the 12mm bearing. My two that used the wide style are wico while the later is a phelon. To be honest, I don't think it matters as the difference is taken up by the spring.
Part numbers: 40x17x12 6203
40x17x17.5 5203
I buy my bearings here: http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/index.html
I try to buy them in advance and keep them at home to save the shipping charges. Sucks to buy one bearing for $3 and pay $10 to ship it! I usually keep a couple sets of main, rod, and stator plate bearings, as well as transmission bearings in stock for the next project!
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"To be honest, I don't think it matters as the difference is taken up by the spring."
Rick ,
From what I read in the manual , only the Wico mags have the spring .
My Phelon mag had no spring , nor was there any room for one .
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"To be honest, I don't think it matters as the difference is taken up by the spring."
Rick ,
From what I read in the manual , only the Wico mags have the spring .
My Phelon mag had no spring , nor was there any room for one .
Ah, have you ever disassembled a sportsman engine with an internal kickstart? It has a spring, but I'm not 100% sure it was supposed to! Other than that, I have no experience with the phelon mag. What size bearing is in yours Pete!
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No spring on my phelon equiped bike. Rick what does the spring bear against on that late motor of yours?
Mike Sal
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Rick ,
From what I read in the manual , only the Wico mags have the spring .
My Phelon mag had no spring , nor was there any room for one .
Pete, I just went to the manual, and the spring is listed under the engine parts section and not the magneto section. It doesn't make a distinction between the 2 different types! Interestingly, it lists 2 different part numbers for the breaker cams! I need to see if I have a spare Wico one laying around to compare it to the Phelon.
I like a good mystery! Anyone else have some input on this?
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No spring on my phelon equiped bike. Rick what does the spring bear against on that late motor of yours?
Mike Sal
It goes between the cam and breaker plate bearing, just like the drawing in the manual. As we all know the quality of the build of that motor, I am NOT sure if this is correct. I suspect it may have been added to take up the space between the narrow bearing and cam gear, and it appears to have been cut to about 1/2 its original length.
On the Phelon, is there anything between the cam and breaker bearing?
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Hmmm....The phelon cam is held in it's location by the flywheel woodruff key. A spring would be trying to push the bearing closer to the motor& not let it float I guess.
Mike Sal
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I don't know which bearing is in there , Rick . I thought I might have written it in my shop notes , but nothing .
The mag bearing is the only bearing I didn't replace on the whole bike .
From what I could tell the installed bearing was/is still good . No side play or 'wobble' and it spun cleanly with little effort . So , I left well enough alone .
Good that you posted the sizes and numbers , in case I ever need one and can't read what's stamped on the bearing I have . ;)
I want to pull the motor apart , again ... when I do , I'll see if I can see a number on the mag bearing ( might be a while before that happens , so don't hold your breath ) .
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The Phelon cam is directly against the bearing and held from spinning by a key , as Mike said .
In my 'M' manual , the spring : #189 - Breaker cam spring ( only with Wico magneto ) .
From earlier observations , I noticed that the Wico and Phelon magnetos are positioned about 90° different . That would demand that the cams also be 'slotted' about the same difference .
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I forgot to notice how close the bearing was to the cam on mine. I didn't replace my bearing either as it was in good condition.
Pete, why are you wanting to take the motor apart?
Mike Sal
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Mike ,
I'd like to take the motor apart to check ring to cylinder wear . But mainly , I'd like to see about making a sleeve that fits snugly inside the intake throat and reduces the clearance between the crankshaft and throat opening .
I'm thinking that may increase fuel transfer efficiency and improve overall performance by helping to eliminate back flow during the down stroke of the piston .
That or maybe mount a reed valve between the carb and case , but that just seems a bit redundant and more a patch ( less original ) .
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Thank you for all the information on the bearing. I bought the engine and the guy that advertised it said it was a great
running engine. He had if overhauled by a specialist on small engines.
Yes he did?
There is no bearing at all on the mag plate. just blank space between the cam and the belt pulley.
I thought is should have a bearing there but the space is thicker on the mag plate than my H engine plate.
Is there a set screw on the M to hold the wide bearing in place as it is on my H?
Ricks, thank you for the number to use on the bearing.
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No set screw. There is a spring between the bearing and cam. Check the 1960 manual in the manuals section for a picture.
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old servi ,
Just to satisfy my curiosity , which magneto does your M have ? Wico or Phelon ?
Rick or ??? ,
Which years did Simplex use the Wico and which years the Phelon magnetos ?
Pete . :)
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Phelon on the M and Wico on the H.
The H has a set screw to keep the bearing from turning or moving in or out.
This is the first M that I have worked on and it seems a lot diff.
Anything go between the bearing and the belt pulley?
Thanks
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The phelon magneto came on in very late '55 or the beginning of '56 (my guess is very late '55, as I've read that there were usually unsold bikes left over at the end of each year in the 50's and they just sold them as the next year's model).
I'd bet that expert that rebuilt that motor didn't have a clue regarding the oddities of a Simplex motor.
Mike Sal
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"This is the first M that I have worked on and it seems a lot diff."
They are different . You should study the manual to see them side by side . They obviously have similarities , just the location of parts is about 90° different , among other differences .
"Anything go between the bearing and the belt pulley?"
The manual shows a washer ( #1260 ) and states to use it only if originally used .
And , again , the Phelon mag does not use a spring between the cam and bearing .
Here are links to the manuals for your M , if you don't already have them :
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=430.0
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=100.0
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Thanks for that , Mike . :)
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Pete, good job on asking which magneto. I had Wico in my mind for some reason. I have a 1958 Automatic manual, and it doesn't have that notation next to the spring as Wico only. They must have updated that in the 1960 manual.
Is there space between the bearing and cam on the Phelon or do they butt up next to each other?
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I think there is a gap on mine, but don't remember for sure. If I have to pull the flywheel off sometime I'll check it.
Mike Sal
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Rick ,
I thought you must have been thinking Wico . That's why the question for clarification and reiteration .
There is no space between cam and bearing on my Phelon mag . The cam is tight against the inner bearing race and is held there once the flywheel is mounted .
Pete . :)
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Since there was no bearing in the engine on the mag plate, I will not know if a spacer
is used between the bearing and the belt pulley.
Any input on this.
Thanks
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What is your motor number? My phelon set up doesn't use a spacer & it's #M23561B.
Mike Sal
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I have never seen a spacer in any motor I have disassembled!
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It's likely that you'll have to heat the plate in order to install a new bearing , much like installing a motor case bearing . I believe the bearing should be flush to the back side of the plate .
The drive pulley is flat on the sides . There is some space between the pulley side and the back side of the plate . That space is determined by the plate mount and the spacer ( #4330 ) for the forward case to plate bolt ( #3157 ).
I don't see a need for the washer / spacer ( #1260 ) other than to maybe insure that the plate bearing outer race could never come in contact with the drive pulley , but ??? Exactly why some had them , I really don't know for sure . The plate bearing has little to no side pressure . It seems to me that it's main purpose is supporting the flywheel and adding counter or resistive support for the drive belt .
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Mike the number on my engine is M23065B.
Thanks PD, Mike, Rick for all the info. Hope to get this
engine running soon.
Is there any other number for the mag bearing other than the
5203 zz number.
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"Is there any other number for the mag bearing other than the
5203 zz number."
That # is all any bearing jobber will need to set you up .
I'd measure the depth of the plate where that bearing will live to make sure you're ordering the correct width .
I'd be interested to know that measurement .
Pete . :)
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My magneto plate was a snug slip fit onto the bearing. I had the bearing on the crank & slid the plate on slowly as I pulled the wires thru the hole (you want to be careful to not scuff the insulation of the wires). No heating required for me.
Mike Sal
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I'm with Mike on this one. The several that I have done have just slide on with a little twisting motion.
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Being as I have not replaced that bearing , I was speculating .
I was just taking the case bearing mount method as being 'common' to the manufacturer .
It's good to know that heat is not needed .
Pete . :)
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I have ordered a couple of the 5203 bearings. Should have them by Monday.
If the bearing is 17MM will have a gap of 8MM after it is set into the mag plate.
from the end of the cam to the edge of the pulley is 25MM on this engine.
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Here's a pic of the clearance between the back of the mag plate and the drive pulley ( Phelon magneto ) :
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1787_zpsf74cf8f7.jpg)