General Category => Wheels & Tires => Topic started by: carryall on August 17, 2014, 12:37:52 PM
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I was wondering if these brake shoes would work on my 48'? On E-bay for $11.00 and measures 4.925" (125mm) and look very close. Anyone tried?
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never tried them but I think they will work. Would need to be a one inch wide shoe
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I tried them. Read about it here: http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=655.msg5411#msg5411
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Thanks Rick and sorry, I should have looked more closely at the search results. I figured that would be too easy anyways. LOL Looks like I'll be getting ahold of our man Wayne for linings this fall, when I start to pull things apart to work on. I've noticed the brakes are fading from all the riding this summer. (100+)
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I bought a foot of this stuff. Looks nice. Have rivets coming tomorrow. Also bought a piece of 1/4 inch thick and am going to reline some shoes then mount to backing plate and then turn to just under drum diameter. The plan is to have full shoe contact plus not have brake shoe cam contact point so far away from center line of pivot. Maybe all of this will aid in better stopping power.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wire-Back-Brake-Lining-1-Wide-x-3-16-Thick-Price-is-Per-Foot-/281375566432?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41834a6a60&vxp=mtr
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Tom, I was looking at that stuff on eBay the other day. Bob Kerr told me to heat the material and it will bend around the shoe much easier. What are the proper size rivets and where did you find them?
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it flexes enough to not have to heat it. Rivets are 4-4.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281405805666?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Thanks Tom. I would actually like to reline without rivets, but bond the material. Jim Lokai had a guy do this for him. I wonder what type of glue would be used for this.
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thinking about making a jig for CNC mill then pop the holes and counter bores in lining material. Then just rivet them. I already took a skin off of the cam end of the shoe so it slides easily. I thought it would be neat to do a core exchange on shoes. Depends on my time.
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would need to research adhesive. probably need to build up a clamping fixture of some kind
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would need to research adhesive. probably need to build up a clamping fixture of some kind
I saw a picture of a flexible band wrapped around the 2 shoes with a spreader bar in the middle to tension the whole shebang.
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I am sure there is a good adhesive out there...I use a panel bond adhesive when doing some autobody repairs when you bond 2 pieces of metal together like a quarter panel or roof skin etc.. the metal will rip before the seam that you used the panel bond on! 3m, Valvoline, and SEM are products that i have used. Just fyi...
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Kartjockie,
I checked the ad and found in the listing "Wire back lining is to be used on External Shoes & Bands Only" Our brakes are internal??? Let us know how it works out.
John
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Kartjockie,
I checked the ad and found in the listing "Wire back lining is to be used on External Shoes & Bands Only" Our brakes are internal??? Let us know how it works out.
John
I read that too, as was confused about what an external shoe is. I think it just means the material goes on the outside of the shoe, which most brakes do. Most band brakes would have the material on the inside, and there for would be curved the wrong direction.
At least that is how I see it! LOL
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the wire backing is extremely fine wire to the point that it is unnoticeable. It wont even matter that it is there.
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Tom, any idea what the difference is between the one you bought and this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Molded-Flexible-Brake-Lining-1-Wide-x-5-32-Thick-Price-is-Per-Foot-/281279175916?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417d8b9cec
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The one you just linked to is only 5/32 thick and mine are 3/16. That would be another 1/16 inch smaller than drum diameter
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Is that the wire we see on the inside diameter?
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As you can see in these two pictures the band brake would be on the outside of the drum. In my way of thinking the wire would be there to hold the material together and/or for bonding to the band. If the wire was on the friction side and wore off the lining would lose its structural integrity.
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Gramps, I agree with you. Look at the pictures Tom posted. To me, it looks like the wire is on the inside of the radius, which looks to be the non friction side. If this is used on a band brake, it looks like it would rub on the wire, but in our brakes, would work as designed.
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That looks like it may be woven lining.
http://www.industrialclutch.com/386-woven-flexible-brake-lining
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Doesn't look like it to me. The same guy sells woven.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Woven-Rolled-Brake-Lining-1-Wide-x-3-16-Thick-Price-is-Per-Foot-/281388922281?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item41841635a9
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oh the paralysis of analysis! LoL. the wire on this is miniscule. one strand measure .009 of an inch. probably the perfect amount of added strength
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I like that clutch bell brake. Never thought of that one!
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In my former life I tested automotive brakes, so I got thinking about the relining problem. I have reservations about using the flexible lining with rivets. You might consider this. JB Weld epoxy is available in automotive stores. It can withstand high temperatures from engine blocks and will hold torque when used to rethread a stripped hole.
Clean the surface of the brake shoes. Install the brake shoes on the brake backing plate. Slip a piece of wax paper between the shoes and the backing plate to keep the shoes from being bonded to the backing plate. Obtain two good hose clamps sufficient in diameter to surround the brake shoes. Cut the brake lining to the required length, apply a minimal amount of epoxy to the surface of the brake lining (enough to squeeze out a bit , but not too much). Slip a hose clamp around the brake shoes with enough room to slip in the brake linings. Position the brake linings and tighten the clamp. Check the position of the linings and re-adjust if necessary. After the first clamp has been tightened, install the second clamp to give full pressure on the complete surface of the brake linings. Wait 24 hours, remove clamps and clean off excess epoxy and trim the brake linings at the edges if necessary.
If the diameter of the linings is too large to install, use a strip of emery cloth or sandpaper in the old shoe shining method and reduce the thickness of the linings equally on each shoe until the desired fit is accomplished.
There is probably no way to determine the longevity of the lining, so it is advisable to check the shoes on a regular basis.
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Would you recommend riveting after the JB weld sets up?
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I don't see any need for the rivets. JB Weld creates a tremendously strong bond. Doing a <<<good job>>> of counter boring the brake linings to install rivets requires a special drill such as one used for counter boring holes for Allen cap screws.
JB Weld a couple pieces of metal together, then try to get them apart.
My cousin who is a machinist put me on to JB Weld about 20 years back. I have been using it ever since. I just fixed the starter switch in my compressor motor a couple weeks back using JB Weld. No repair part available, $500 for a new motor.
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So here is a picture of my lining fixture. I can put it in the mill and program the drill positions to make each lining have the correct hole pattern to fit the shoe. Once I have told the computer were the starting point is the fixture will repeat the hole pattern by installing the lining into the corner each time. I have found the linings to be the same either front or rear and top and bottom, however, there is an inside and outside as one side of the rivets is closer to the edge of the shoe then the other. These shoes require a #4/4 rivet. This is 9/64 in diameter, 5/16 flathead that is 1/4 of an inch long. You must counter bore the lining to a depth of .125 leaving .062. Mike Sal is correct when he said you must grind clearance in the side of the riveting tool as the rivets are very close to the center web of the shoe.
I also have a plan to start with a thicker lining material, rivet it in place, and then make another fixture resembling that of the backing plate, install the shoes on it just as you would on the wheel. Then put this fixture in my lathe and arc the shoes to match the diameter of the drum.(use to do this years ago on car linings) This will provide complete usage of the length of the lining and will also allow the cam to work as close to its pivot providing as much leverage as the cam can give. I noticed on the brakes that I have that the cam was working towards the outer edge. Along with all of this I have dusted the actuator end of the shoes just enough to square and true them up so that they are smooth again with no wear marks.
Anyone wanting to try my brake shoes can contact me and we will talk. Biggest thing is I don't have any cores to pre-make any shoes ahead so I would need to do your shoes.
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kartjockey i want your mill!! lol! i sold mine a few years back-ugh!
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Since the brake linings are flying off the self I thought I would make some more!
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So what are you charging for those, they look better than the ones Wayne sells. I would like to be on the list for two sets with rivets.
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I did the first set of shoes with just a hammer but decided to rig this up. Kind of provides a third hand. I have a pin at the bottom that the head of the rivet sets on and the riveting tool is held in with a set screw.. Notice how I had to contour the riveting tool to avoid the web of the shoe.
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I take it you have a dimple under to back the rivet while tour pressing it?
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This is Pauls(carryall) brake assembly. Notice how far the cam has to turn before the shoes engage the drum. This is set to contact a drum diameter of 5.000. So just over an 1/8 of an inch. An adjuster would be nice!
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Tom ,
Did you see this post ?
" Distance from cam pin to cam contact point of shoes will be sorter thus more leverage. That is my theory! "
Tom ,
I had to work with what I had .
The talk about transmission shoes brought to mind the fact that my brake adjustment was near totally used .
I had to remove the rear wheel anyway , so I pulled the brake panel for inspection . I found that my brake shoe rocker ends ( as opposed to the pivot ends ) were just aluminum . They had no hard surface to protect against wear , like most more modern shoes have . The brake actuator , where the rocker ends rest while mounted on the panel , had small ridges close to the tips ( likely left from casting ). Those ridges were cutting into the flat surface of the rocker ends of the shoes .
I filed the ridges smooth and made protection 'clips' out of that hard , unforgiving copper pipe that I couldn't bend for my exhaust pipes . That copper is about 3/32" thick , so I ended up with almost an inch more of adjustment on the brake rod .
Hopefully , the copper will save the shoes from too much more abuse .
I can't believe I didn't take any pics while I had the panel and shoes off . :(
That ^ sounds like it may accomplish the same thing as a tad larger shoe surface . The 'caps' did / do seem to help the bike stop sooner .
And , I don't sleep as easy with my bike so far away . :( My only consolation is that I know it's in a safe hidyhole . ;)
Pete . :)
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Definitely a great idea PD. I am trying to do two things by using a thicker lining. Be able to arc the lining to the drum diameter and, at the same time, keep the cam back. Aiming for the eagle!
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Would have been nice if the brake actuator was able to be taken off instead of welded on. It would be easier to build up, and/or even up the two sides, or even change the profile/angle of it. Could also extend the brakes arm for more leverage too?
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Would have been nice if the brake actuator was able to be taken off instead of welded on. It would be easier to build up, and/or even up the two sides, or even change the profile/angle of it. Could also extend the brakes arm for more leverage too?
Changing arms on the brake lever was easy. I had to move the lever on one for the 3 wheel truck I built.
As for changing the length, I posted the following in another thread:
The earlier style, that used the clevis, came in different length arms. The 1949 I had, used arms that measured 1 1/2" from pivot center points, where as the 1953 and 1954 I have both measure 2". I guess Simplex decided a little more leverage wouldn't hurt.
Interestingly enough, The sportsman measures 1 3/4", where as another late style I have measures at 2". I wonder if this length change was precipitated by the change in the brake lever action, as the sportsman uses a completely different brake pedal setup?
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It's good to hear there's more than one way to "skin a cat"! (or skid servicycle tire) and not be inventing the wheel again. (at least the wheels brake)
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I had considered building the actuator , but went with the shoe end caps as that was the easiest and quickest solution to accomplish about the end result .
Pete . :)
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here is the final product. Ended up being a little bit of everything. Last pic shows the cam angle wen the shoes will contact a 5.00 dia. drum. Also installed a thin clip on each shoe to dial in the diameter I wanted.
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Sweet , Tom .
You may have just gotten that eagle . ;)
Pete . :)
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Carralls brake shoes being field tested soon. Wait for his report!!
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With bated breath ... Hurry up Carryall . ;)
Pete . :)
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Got it back together last night and hoping to get it on the road when it warms up today? (50 degrees) It'll take a mile to wear in the pads (slight brake drag) and then eventually, I'll see if I can get it to "skid" on smooth concrete, which it wouldn't do with the old ones. The material is softer than old material and SHOULD conform and grab better than the other ones. (they were manufactured by Raybestos Tom said) We'll see...
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Got it back together last night and hoping to get it on the road when it warms up today? (50 degrees) It'll take a mile to wear in the pads (slight brake drag) and then eventually, I'll see if I can get it to "skid" on smooth concrete, which it wouldn't do with the old ones. The material is softer than old material and SHOULD conform and grab better than the other ones. (they were manufactured by Raybestos Tom said) We'll see...
How bad were the originals? I can lock up the rear wheel on my rat bike, and those shoes look like they might be original. Wayne's replacements, which are the woven material style, will lock up the rear wheel on my restored bike also.
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Tom said it looked as if someone else had put linings in at one time because the holes were slightly oversized, probably from them drilling out the original rivets. The old/replaced pads were plenty thick but didn't stop the bike well at all. The new pads work GREAT and take minimal pressure to do the job. (I locked them up just to see if they'd do it) Great job Tom. Thanks again, and when they wear out, we'll be doing it again with the same pads.
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My replacement linings can lock my rear wheel , too . I'm not positive , but I think my linings were produced by Wagner . My memory isn't as ... what was I saying ? ;)
Anyway , the OEM linings must have also been able to lock the wheel as the original rear tire I have is nicely balded , center treads .
Pete . :)