General Category => Engine & Transmission => Topic started by: admin on March 04, 2012, 11:37:42 AM
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Has anyone had their flywheel magnates recharged. I asked Wayne about this and he told me he used to have a guy do this for him, but he is no longer around. Wayne stated that it improved the spark and made the lights brighter. Anyone know anybody that does it?
Rick
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I don't know of anyone, but this has been on my mind. The one in my bike works however the center hub is broke loose, I was going to weld it and mike brought up the question of the magnets discharging . I can see that it was originally brazed,and that is likely why. Thing is iam not to confident in my brazing ability even though I install central a/c s and silver brazed them, I still have never used brass, also iam unsure if the orientation matters I can probley get it close from a picture of mikes . It shouldn't matter with the timing ,but I wonder about a balance issue
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If you don't know anyone in your area that has a Model T Ford, go to the Model T Ford Club of America website (it's one of the best sites going) & find out who is in your area with a magnet charger. They may be able to help in charging magnets (the T uses a bunch of V shaped magnets bolted to the flywheel to form their magneto & 80 year old magnets loose their charge & have to be zapped again). My '26 touring car still runs pretty good so I've not had to deal with it yet. I've seen some pictures of homemade chargers & they are basically an iron rod with a bunch of wire wrapped around them. Maybe a search on charging model t magnets will reveal some info.
Mike Sal
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Hi there ,,, I have been laid up for a while but I built and almost completed a magnet charger magnets in the wico magneto can be charged , reverse charged , and reversed again , as many times as you want , but require special " adapters to insure the integrety of the field strength , . I wound about twenty pounds of number 18 magnet wire around a couple of soft iron cores that I turned out on a lathe ,, when hooked up to a fourty eight volt golf cart, the tools and metal stuff from about three feet away all jumped to a nice piece of artwork on the bench . ( never been so scared in all my life !!) Phelon magnetos have alnico magnets ( aluminum , nickle , cobalt )magnets that are supposed to be charged while they are being cast hot , ( don't know why ) and I am still trying to figure out how to charge them, They do not like heat and silver brazing them back on after they fall off will certainley weaken them ,, reverse charging won't hurt , as the magneto is essentially an A.C. item also the lioghts , Like pulling a non-polorized plug out of the socket and turning it upside down . All the best , Larry Brown.
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Hey, Larry my center hub is pulled loose from the rest of the flywheel on a phelon do you think brazing it back on would create to much heat?
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Larry, Post a picture of your charger if you can. I'd like to see it.
My company makes fuel pumps for cars. We charge magnets by the zillion (yes, you can zap & unzap them all you want....you just can't charge them more than they are designed to hold....re-zapping an already charged magnet doesn't hurt, it just doesn't help). I think we even use ALNICO in a few applications.
I'll take my Phelon flywheel to work tomorrow & I'll ask the guys in the lab about it, & what they think about brazing or welding on them.
Mike Sal
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That would be great Mike ,I should be working on that while Wayne has my top end . I have just been unsure how to tackle it.
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I brought one back to life by silver brazing the center hub in , use a HOT flame to concentrate the heat on the hub and keep the circumference cool with a wet towel .I used a piu
ece of broken crankshaft in a lathe to make sure it ran true , broken off magnets were glued back on with plumbers goop and !/8 steel rod was pushed through a hole drilled through the outer circumference , welded to the pole shoe attached to the magnet ( tig ) and then tig welded to the countersunk hole in the flywheel , magnets come off no more forever ! will post photos as soon as I can , multiple leg injuries prevent me from getting too far into garage, ( also my insane hoarding don't help either ) , 1/2 bolt through flywheel hub with BIG THICK 1/2 washer on theoutside kept the hub in place during brazing . ( tip , old flat twin briggs engine coil can be modified with a square file to fit phelon magneto , not newer pointless type ) Works beautiful , NEVER try to see how big a gap the coil will spark , It will most certainly tax the coil and may create problems if none were present to begin with, Been two finger typing too long , Yall please feel free to call me , 314 609 6568 . If I cant talk I'll say so and we will speak later all the best Larry.
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I talked to our magnet supplier today (home base north suburbs of Indianapolis, but all the magnets come from china....they have all the rare earth elements to make magnets these days....).
His advise was similar to Larry's, if you braze, be sure to keep the outer edge where the magnets are cool. Excess heat will affect the strength of the charge (in blacksmithing, we call it the "transitional temperature", where steel loses it's magnetic properties). He did not think an electric welder would harm the magnets.
Mike Sal
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I own a plumbing and hvac company ,so I've done quite a lot of silver brazing I could give that a shot . Do you think the orientation would need to be perfect or just close?
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Sorry , I forgot about the position of the key slot in relation to the magnets , strive for perfection here, the electric charge has to be at the minimum ( not maximum ) just when the points start to crack open, give me a few days to figure out a way to come up with a template to put things right ,,,,,,close just isnt good enough ..Larry.
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I agree with Larry, if the keyway is moved, it's the same as advancing or retarding the spark. I'll take my flywheel to work on Monday & have the inspection gals do a layout of the pole pieces, relative to the angle of the keyway. I'll then make a CAD file to print out for a template (unless larry comes up with a easy way first) I can email or snail mail to you.
Speaking of spark advance, in the Wollard book, there's a story about the Western Union guys elongating the mounting holes on their magnetos so they could advance the spark for better performance. I wonder where our stock bikes are timed at right now? Could we benefit from this modification?
Mike Sal
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I believe that a couple more degrees of timing may be beneficial. I think if it were me, I would advance the timing alittle when repairing that flywheel. I have also thought that one could make an offset key that advanced the timing a couple of degrees.
Rick
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in the model T world, your taught that the throttle controls the speed of the car & the spark advance controls the speed of the engine.
Mike Sal
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It would be a mistake to change the position of the flywheelm key from the original setting, the relationshio between the key and the position of the magnets as the magnets have to be flying past the coil laminations at just the right position as the points crack open, the proper way to change spark timing is to move the stator plate one direction or the other so the spark would be optimum ,( strength-wise ) changing the timing has many variables , ethenol ( yuck ) fuel , condition of engine .and fuel , oil mix ( I use 50-1 opti 2 ) premix and never had an oil related failure in a two strioke (yet ) I work as a mechanic at a golf course , and the stooges that operate the equipment here are brutal .
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It would be a mistake to change the position of the flywheelm key from the original setting, the relationshio between the key and the position of the magnets as the magnets have to be flying past the coil laminations at just the right position as the points crack open, the proper way to change spark timing is to move the stator plate one direction or the other so the spark would be optimum ,( strength-wise ) changing the timing has many variables , ethenol ( yuck ) fuel , condition of engine .and fuel , oil mix ( I use 50-1 opti 2 ) premix and never had an oil related failure in a two strioke (yet ) I work as a mechanic at a golf course , and the stooges that operate the equipment here are brutal .
Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't turning the stator plate change the relationship between the magnets and coil laminations the same as turning the flywheel? I know on 4 stroke kart engines, this is done all the time.
Rick
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Hi there It's me again , the stator plate contains the points and the coil along with the laminations it is mounted on ,,,you advanve the stator plate ( counter clockwise ) and you advance the points AND the coil , if you change the flywheel key position you dont change the timing because you don't alter the point cam position onthe crankshaft But you alter the magnet position in relation to the point position , I think Kart engines use ignition coil with built in spark trigger , then the timing will be altered by changed flywheel key position only.
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Makes sense. I remember my outboard boat motors had coil plates that had several degrees of rotation for advancing the spark.
Mike Sal
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Interesting topic,as I never knew the relationship of magnets mattered as they passed the pickups. I will wait on repairing that flywheel ,until I find out proper position
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Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
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didn't have time to have the cad guys do a better job, but here's a napkin sketch of where the keyway is in relationship to the closest poll piece.
Mike Sal
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Hi there , got simple bracket made to position pheolan hub , Give a call with shipping address so I can drop it off at the post office tamale . ( no charge) my good deed for today ;D
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Larry, what's your bracket look like? I thought about making one too. I was going to cut a tapered piece to fit the keyway & tapered hole, then bend the rest of it over to make a pointer to the edge of the closest pole piece.
Mike Sal
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!/2 inch bolt about 2 1/2 inches long with 1/8 inch hole drilled through about 3/4 inch from head ,,, then nail clobbered into hole and sawed off about 3/i6 to catch keyway ,,, inserted from insude the flywheel , nut on outside with flat wasker to draw hub up tight against pressed steel flywheel , then 3/8 rod placed across bolt head between magnet pairs ,brazed to bolt head, no need for taper , I gotta get my internet camera skills together, easy quick jig from stuff laying around ;D
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got ahead of myself, :-[ need unmolested flywheel to make one , I knocked this together in aboit 10 minutes,
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Hey, Larry I sent you an e- mail with my address . Just wondered if you received it , I usually screw up when I try computer messaging.