General Category => Restoration Projects => Topic started by: pd on October 21, 2012, 03:16:04 PM
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And so , it begins , again .
My intention is to rebuild my Simplex as a rider . Maybe someday I'll find the motivation to bring it back to a showroom piece , but I want to enjoy it like I did when I was 14 . I didn't care much what it looked like then , even though it wasn't all that bad . It ran pretty good and that was enough .
As I told Mike , here are a few pics of my '57 Simplex . You might agree that I have a bit of work ahead . ;)
I'll post as I progress . And if I don't run out of batteries for the camera , I'll take a few pics along the way .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/q0rkiyv6x/HPIM1542.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/biudaz3vt/HPIM1543.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/a52qfo4mh/HPIM1544.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6mqqja3qh/HPIM1546.jpg)
A little history :
6 1/2 years ago I retrieved the bike from the shed behind my folks home where it had hibernated since 1964 . It came into daylight in much sorrier shape than I recall when putting away . There are a few parts that have disappeared over those 'few' years that I'll have buy or fabricate .
I took it home and stripped it down for clean up and parts replacement . There was some rust on the frame which I removed . I then gave the frame a cover coat of paint to help keep that rust at bay . I recall buying a few replacement bushings and I also relined the brake shoes .
I know there's more to tell , but that will come in due time .
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I had a minute today . Hand turning the mag wheel , checking movement , I heard a scrapping I don't recall hearing before . After pulling the mag wheel , maybe this is the problem :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/uiygot0mh/HPIM1548.jpg)
I'm thinking a good epoxy will do for holding that errant magnet in place .
While things were exposed , I took another pic :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/v9r6ul2zt/HPIM1549.jpg)
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I wonder if gorilla glue would be better than epoxy? Either way, try to get it located exactly where it was & use a clamp.
Mike Sal
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Gorilla glue does have different glues . I'll have to do a bit of research . I'll post what I decide to use and the results . I definitely planned on clamping it . There's no better way . ;)
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Looking at the '57 and later parts diagram ( http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=446.0 ) , I see a difference in magnet placement , four in a row , than how they are placed in my flywheel , two side by side opposing two side by side .
My stator assembly is identical to that shown in the diagram .
I have to wonder why and then , exactly how would that effect timing ?
(https://s26.postimg.cc/okknekhnt/index.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/uiygot0mh/HPIM1548.jpg)
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I have an reproduced owners manual and , of course , the Phelon magneto page is missing . :(
So I can't compare that .
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If anyone has an owners manual that is from before June 1957 that has the Phelon magneto page . Could you Please scan and post it ? Or at least take a good pic of that page and post that ?
Thanks in advance . :)
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Gorilla glue does have different glues . I'll have to do a bit of research . I'll post what I decide to use and the results . I definitely planned on clamping it . There's no better way . ;)
Mike ,
I did check the Gorilla Glue site ( http://www.gorillatough.com/index.php?page=gorilla-glue-guide ) .
I like the waterproof and temperature resistant qualities .
Gorilla Glue should be a good choice .
Thanks for the suggestion . :)
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Years ago I used " Plumbers goop" adheseve and clamped the magnet back in where it was , Then I drilled and countersunk 8 holes in the flywheel outside circumference that allowed 8/32 countersunk screw heads to push through the holes and pass through to the tips ( or sides ) of those curved magnet shoes . then had a very experienced welder , tig the screw ends to the tip of the pole pieces ( all of then ) Sorry I don't have photo , did'nt get hot where the glue was ,so it worked out with out issue ;D , I have 57 scooter manual with magnets on alternate position also but all my phelon mags have the magnets symetrical , Only two magnets in the right place are needed for spark the other two augment ( I love that word ,,,, been wanting to use it all week ! ) the lighting output ,, I'm sure couterweight is on opposite side .
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Hey is the Phelon magneto the same size as the wilco one??? and by the way that bike looks to be in great starting condition alot better than others of the same age.
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Larry ,
Your screw addition sounds like a very permanent solution .
"Only two magnets in the right place are needed for spark "
Of course , you are right . Reading that resurrected knowledge from my past . I'm certified by Briggs & Stratton for their small motor repair . The flywheels they use only have a pair of magnets . As many motors as I've had apart over the last 50 some years , I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't recall that little fact .
oil-lamp ,
I would think the Wico and Phelon magnetos would be similar in size . But , I can see from the diagrams that Wico has different coil mounting and the points are in a different position . Both seem about 90° clockwise compared to the Phelon .
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The reason I ask about the size is that I had picked a flywheel up that is smaller than the one I have on my bike. I was thinking I could find something for it to do besides hanging out in my barn. Oh well back in the box it goes. :'(
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If my memory is correct , the Wico flywheel is about 2 pounds heavier ( mostly Zinc ) Phelon flywheel is about 5 pounds , mercury outboard guys have same trouble with magnets falling off ,,, especially when "banged " or shocked Phelon mags have alnico magnets that are sweat brazed to the flywheel , Alnico cannot be drilled ( too hard ) and too much heat removes the magnetic " hootsewhatsees" I'm thinking about removing all the magnets on a damaged flywheel and attaching rare earth magnets for more punch,,,,,, Larry.
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Looking at the diagram of the Wico wheel , I see a bunch of counter weight . Does the Wico wheel have any 'drill divets' for balancing like the Phelon wheels ?
" I'm thinking about removing all the magnets on a damaged flywheel and attaching rare earth magnets for more punch,,,,,, Larry."
I think you should do that tomorrow . Don't forget to post before and after pics , along with the amount of gained 'punch' . ;)
Seriously , I'd be very interested to see the results of that experiment . :)
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Looking at the diagram of the Wico wheel , I see a bunch of counter weight . Does the Wico wheel have any 'drill divets' for balancing like the Phelon wheels ?
" I'm thinking about removing all the magnets on a damaged flywheel and attaching rare earth magnets for more punch,,,,,, Larry."
I think you should do that tomorrow . Don't forget to post before and after pics , along with the amount of gained 'punch' . ;)
Seriously , I'd be very interested to see the results of that experiment . :)
Yes, the Wico flywheels have "drill divets".
Finding flywheels is a problem. Wayne has told me he is looking for a solution, but so far, no dice.
Rick
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I think I'll pull some of my stuff out of the mothballs tomorrow , and see what I can come up with , I was thinking of a solution to the flywheel priblem myself ,,, maybe a two inch wide piece of seven inch pipe with magnets attached , 4 inch wide 3/8 bar across the middle with a hole to accept the taper hole center and key ? all it is is work.
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Definitely let us know what you come up with . Take a bunch of pics , too . :)
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I like the ying-yang avatar ,,, a couple of budweisers and watching that and I'm happy for hours ;D
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Happy to oblige . :)
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I glued and clamped the detached flywheel magnet into place .
I'm still hearing a slight draggy , not really a grind , noise . More felt than heard . :(
Bearing time and , of course , seal .
Is there a better replacement main bearing available ? Seal ?
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When I felt the need for top end work , the engine came out for total overhaul , ( meaning new bearings , that way the rotary valve assembly would stay in check , " the old watched pot adage " ) I use premium bearings from skf , I've learned to toss them before they get loose to prevent rotary valve failure , cheers Larry.
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as an afterthought , try to spray paint a little color on the magnets to see exactly where : and what is rubbing , a little file work in the right place can make stuff work so much better,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :P
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Larry ,
Can you post the SKF bearing #s , Please ? ( all 3 )
And what seal do you use ?
I haven't had the crank out of the case , yet . Where is the rotary valve located ? I didn't see it in the crank parts diagram . Or , is the rotary valve used in earlier models ?
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My fuel tank has just a bit of surface rust inside , so I have Wood Bleach on order .
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Hello the stationary half of the rotary valve is the cerankcase between the two big main bearings ,,, the rotary half is the crankshaft , It will be apparent when it comes apart , feel free to call me 314 609 6568 all the best ,, Larry. ;D
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Thank you for the 'invite' Larry . I may just do that . :)
I tore my motor apart this evening .
I was able to see seal and bearing #s with the exception of the left main bearing ( next to the crank counter weight ) . Could someone please tell me what that bearing # is ?
That left bearing is the only bearing that has a bit of a growl . I intend replacing all the bearings and seal .
6 years . Long enough for me to have forgotten the unique piston skirt design of the Simplex motor .
The rotary valve is an interesting design also . I wonder if anyone has tried opening the crankshaft 'intake' hole to broaden or possibly quicken the draw time for fuel intake ?
Speaking of intake , what is the purpose of the hole at the bottom of the intake tunnel ? It angles downward to a hole inside the base mount 'towers' . It is plugged at the bottom with something fairly soft .
And what purpose does the screw just under the carb mount have ?
(https://s26.postimg.cc/90d9o17jd/HPIM1557.jpg)
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It's been about 2 weeks since I posted pics of my stator .
No one has commented on the ignition coil . I have to wonder if it looks like one of Wayne's 'new' replacements .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/v9r6ul2zt/HPIM1549.jpg)
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I have a '48 hitting on one plug so I bought a coil from Wayne this passed summer when I was in Portland just in case my coil quits completely. Can't help you too much with any questions on the later blocks. But to answer that intake opening question. I think it would be a touchy timing issue with the relationship between base pressure and cylinder pressure. May gain on one but lose on the other. A person might have to study where the factory has it then mark desired opening size on rotary valve and see where and how quickly you get results. Maybe even use a degree wheel.
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Where did you come up with your coil from? Wonder if it hits harder then the one I posted. Like the old Briggs coils where a guy had to hardly flip the crank with his hand and he would see a spark. I know my kart coils on briggs looked the same dimensionally but had different windings and became saturated more easily raising the output to 40,000 volts.
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"Where did you come up with your coil from? "
That coil is from a 'same period' outboard motor stator that had dual coils and points . The stator was produced by Phelon and the coil is a perfect fit , as are the points , which are in much better condition than the points that were in my Simplex stator when I got it . The 'new' points are mounted on the Simplex stator in the pic above .
Here's a couple of pics of that outboard stator :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/l3ilblill/HPIM1562.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/56jtevq7d/HPIM1563.jpg)
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A question on carburaters :
What is the original carb suppose to be ?
The carb that I have is a Tillotson MT9B . It is configured a bit different than what is shown in the parts manual , but I think I can make it work if it's not too far out of venturi range .
Does anyone know what the model #s on the Tillotson carbs indicates ?
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I rec'd my order of wood bleach ( Oxalic Acid ) and thought it best to test it before I subjected my fuel tank for rust removal .
I mixed a rather mild solution for the test . Here are some before and after pics :
Before :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/wkyy31yll/HPIM1553.jpg)
After :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/tsabwrnmx/HPIM1559.jpg)
The parts looked almost this good after just a couple of hours bath , but I left them in over night to see if the deep reaches would be 'taken care of ' . The pulley was totally rusted .
I pulled the parts and rinsed them in a bath of hot water , then let them dry . The Oxalic acid seems to eat rust and leave a protective coating . I wiped some of that coating off the rear brake plate . Also note that the acid does not effect painted parts ( a big plus ) .
My tank is now filled to the brim with Oxalic Acid .
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I've read on this forum about both the pulley ( note the loosening instructions ) and the small wired anti vibration nut :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/t41hdtox5/HPIM1560.jpg)
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Hi there , spongy stuff in the intake port drain is felt , to keep the outside air from entering the crankase , ( other end of hole exits between the two ribs that support crankcase . the funny shaped port is supposed to prevent flooded fuel from filling op crankcase ) . port timing can be altered , but there always will be consequences , earlier servicycle engines had more restrictive port timimg and benefitted the direct drive models by providing more low end torque at push start speeds , increased port opening time worked better for transmission models, I have used coils from old style point system briggs engines , ( flathead twins ) and modified by square fileing the center hole to fit Phelon bikes resist the temtation to spin and let the spary try to jump a big gap , this practice is detrimental to coil integrety , I have not experimented on wico replacements , ( yet ) though I have the winder and materials , fingers starting to hurt , bye, Larry.
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"Hi there , spongy stuff in the intake port drain is felt , to keep the outside air from entering the crankase , ( other end of hole exits between the two ribs that support crankcase . the funny shaped port is supposed to prevent flooded fuel from filling op crankcase ) ."
Makes sense . Thanks . :)
I need to replace the crankshaft main ( left ) bearing . I can't seem to find a suitable replacement . Suggestions , Please .
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Is this the OEM piston configuration?
This is the only piston skirt I've seen that uses the slots instead of holes for transfer 'timing' or are the slots meant to aid in skirt lubrication ?
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y3yxlrujt/HPIM1564.jpg)
Those rings are new . You can see that they are not fully seated , yet . I haven't run the motor with them installed . Just a few revolutions by hand .
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Those slots may help aid lubrication, but I think they where put in to keep the piston from seizing when it got hot. Wayne's replacement, as well as the ones that used to be available from Bob Kerr, had no slots.
Rick
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A question on carburaters :
What is the original carb suppose to be ?
The carb that I have is a Tillotson MT9B . It is configured a bit different than what is shown in the parts manual , but I think I can make it work if it's not too far out of venturi range .
Does anyone know what the model #s on the Tillotson carbs indicates ?
The original was either an MT1D or MT22A.
Here is a little secret. Dennis Carpenter Cushman sells a MT replacement carb. This carb needs 2 simple modifications to work for us. First, move the throttle linkage to the correct position. This is as simple as loosening a screw and reindexing the arm. Second, drill 2 more holes in the main nozzle. The stock MT1D has 4 holes, the replacements, only 2. Look in the simplex parts manual and it is easy to see.
The air cleaner bolt holes on the replacement carb are larger than stock, so either make something, or Wayne sells the correct ones and then the aircleaner bolts on like stock.
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Thank you for the 'invite' Larry . I may just do that . :)
The rotary valve is an interesting design also . I wonder if anyone has tried opening the crankshaft 'intake' hole to broaden or possibly quicken the draw time for fuel intake ?
Speaking of intake , what is the purpose of the hole at the bottom of the intake tunnel ? It angles downward to a hole inside the base mount 'towers' . It is plugged at the bottom with something fairly soft .
And what purpose does the screw just under the carb mount have ?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1557.jpg)
I have thought about opening the hole through the crankshaft, like porting a intake port, for more flow.
The angled hole was to help with flooding, or so I have been told.
As for the screw, I have no idea. Does not seem to do anything. I thought maybe the hole was used as a locator in the machining process, then just filled with a screw because it was easy. That's my story and I'm sticking to it until someone tells me better!! LOL!!
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It's been about 2 weeks since I posted pics of my stator .
No one has commented on the ignition coil . I have to wonder if it looks like one of Wayne's 'new' replacements .
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1549.jpg)
Sorry I have been off line for a while with the storm. Wayne's replacement coil is a single output coil. I am currently running one in my 53. I have had a NOS wico twin coil in there, and there is zero, nada, zilch difference in the way it runs. Even simplex admitted it didn't do anything to help the engine run better, as evidenced by the fact that the last cylinders they made were single spark plug.
If anyone has knowledge of a coil that puts out more spark, please speak up. Also, does anyone know where we can get our flywheels recharged? This would probably help get a stronger spark.
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I heard the island got hit fairly hard . Hope you and yours are fine .
I always figured the dual spark plug was an attempt at a cleaner or more complete burn . We know the oils of 50 years ago weren't as refined or developed as some of the oils available today . And , I'm not sure how the gasoline differs from then to now .
Larry Brown thought a flywheel with rare earth magnets might increase the coil output . I'd like to see the results of that experiment .
"As for the screw, I have no idea. Does not seem to do anything. I thought maybe the hole was used as a locator in the machining process, then just filled with a screw because it was easy. That's my story and I'm sticking to it until someone tells me better!! LOL!!
"
I bet it was for fitting a nitrous setup . You know , for the racing circuit . ;)
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What are the measurements for the main crankshaft bearing ? The bearing that is in my motor is a Hoover 205 . I'm told that it crosses to a 6205 , but , the 6205 seems to be about a mm to big on the outside measure .
Please and Thank You . :)
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What are the measurements for the main crankshaft bearing ? The bearing that is in my motor is a Hoover 205 . I'm told that it crosses to a 6205 , but , the 6205 seems to be about a mm to big on the outside measure .
Please and Thank You . :)
Pete, what is the width of your bearing? I think they used 2 widths over the years. The earlier M engines used a 20.6mm wide bearing where as the later M used a 15mm bearing. The problem I had is, I could not find the wider bearing in a single row bearing, like the original. In a double row bearing, it is available and the part # is 5205. I have never tried one as Wayne had a wide single row bearing for me. I just called him, but he was not in to ask if he had anymore, or a part number, or if he had tried a double row bearing. I will post an update after I speak with him.
As for outside diameter, they are 52mm, Inside diameter is 25mm.
A 6205 bearing would be correct if your original bearing is 15mm wide.
If you think your bearing is too large, it is like because you are trying to install it into a cold engine case. NEVER, EVER POUND THE BEARINGS IN OR OUT OF THE CASE WITHOUT FIRST PREHEATING IT! This can cause the case to split. The engine case must be preheated in an oven. 400 degrees for 15 minutes works. The first time I did it, it stunk up the house, and I have been using the gas grill outdoors instead. I just light half the grill and put the case on the other side, away from the flame.
The bearings will come out with some easy taps of a mallet when at proper temperature. To reinstall bearings, I do the same, but I also stick the bearings in the freezer for a few minutes, and they slip right in with a slight tap with a block of wood.
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Update: I spoke with Wayne, he has the wide single row bearings available. He didn't know the part # cross reference. I asked about the double row bearing and he didn't see why they would be a problem, said it would just be overkill. We can get them for about $10 from http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/.
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Rick , from what I'm seeing the 5205 is 20.6mm wide because of the double row bearings . The 6205 is 15mm wide . Both have the same inside and outside measurements .
I haven't removed the original bearing , yet . But , it seems pretty obvious that the 6205 is too big just by looking . Note in the 2nd pic how the small dark line just under the new bearing disappears as it gets farther away from the point of alignment at the upper edge .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/dmdza4ig9/HPIM1565.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/i705p225l/HPIM1569.jpg)
The 6205 is going to shrink that much ?
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You are correct:
The 5205 is the wide bearing @ 20.6mm
The 6205 is the narrow @ 15mm
They do make a 5205 wide bearing in single row. Wayne has them. I could not find them anywhere I looked, but have seen the 5205 in double row available in many places.
The bearing, being steel, will not change much, but the case, being aluminum, will expand.
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" NEVER, EVER POUND THE BEARINGS IN OR OUT OF THE CASE WITHOUT FIRST PREHEATING IT! This can cause the case to split. The engine case must be preheated in an oven. 400 degrees for 15 minutes works. "
That ^ is essential . I lightly tapped on the bearing ( cold ) with no sign of giving way . My thought was to apply heat .
Thank you for the conformation , Rick . :)
Almost the same procedure is used when re-sleeving a cylinder .
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Pete, I just looked at a bearing and case I took apart a couple of months ago. Just by looking at them, and stacking the bearing on top of the hole, I would swear there is no way it would go in. Heat the case, and like magic, it goes right in.
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I'll simply have to act on faith as at this point I have no other options . ;)
I'll try getting a few pics of the 'ordeal' .
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I de-rusted my gas tank : http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=501.msg3227#new
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Going through a few parts , I came up with another Tillotson carb .
The one I found today is an MT48A . The throttle nor the choke are spring loaded .
I noticed the size of the venturis are very different . The MT9B ( this was on the bike ) has a venturi about 9mm .
The MT48A has a venturi about 15mm .
Question : What is the size of the venturi of the OEM Tillotson MT1 carbs ? At least a close educated estimate ???
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Waiting ...
for motor bearings and seal ; new chrome balls for the wheel hubs .
Good thing this is just a hobby .
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Well I just got one of those new compression cover units with hopes this fixes my problems. Had this bike together for over a year and still have nite got to ride it. :'(
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You bought one of the aluminum compression plates ?
Please , let us know how that works out .
I thought about one of those , but I couldn't see any great advantage . Maybe I'm missing something .
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I was working on my axles , cones and associated nuts and spacers tonight . The cones leave a lot to be desired .
I used a jewelers file to dress the bad spots in the race faces of the cones . Seems they were made with defects . There was plenty of grease around the bearing balls , so I'd be real hard pressed to think the defects were due to rust . Which I saw none of on the cones .
I'll have to see if Wayne has the cones available .
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PD at this point I'm going to try what ever it takes to get this beast running. I think I've tried almost everything I could think of. I can make it run but not for long. This may decide the fate of the beast to where she ether a rider or trailer queen. I do see the outer ring is thicker so it may seal better. Should I use a rtv sealent or keep it dry. Wayne does carry the cones "Thank God" after I had a faulty tap break off during a clean up on the threads. He's got a lot of needed parts and if you haven't got his parts list get one they help big time. 8)
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Reese, what is the problem you are having? Is it stalling,sputtering or what? What is your compression?
Wayne has more parts than is listed on his price sheet. If you need something, ask him.
As for the compression plate, I use rtv on the plate, but leave it dry on the engine case, so I can pull the cover without destroying the gasket. Wayne has told me he made the aluminum plates deeper than stock to help with airflow through the engine case. I am not sure that this really helps, but I can not see any downside either. The thicker flange should definitely help seal against leaks. Wayne also told me to put the cover on with one gasket and see if there is any rubbing on the connecting rod. If so, add a second gasket for clearance.
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I have a parts list from Wayne , but it's at least 6 years old . I'll see if he'll send me a current list .
Reese , How long is " not for long " ? Does the motor run like it should for that period ? And , how does the motor act when it's about to quit ? Does it seem to gain RPMs or does it simply die or die with a final 'chug' ?
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PD, those axle cones are probably suffering from what is known as "spalling". A piece of grit will get between the ball and the cone which creates a hi pressure spot which creates a fault in the surface. From there, it's just like a pot hole in the road in the wintertime. You'll never be able to straighten them out to where they will run true.
Wayne has new ones. I bought some for my bike, but one of them had bad threads (after they are machined out, he has them heat treated & sometimes they will shrink too much & make the threads too tight).
Mike Sal
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That sounds like a very plausible explanation , Mike . Not like they just invented sand yesterday ... ;)
Thanks for the heads up on shrinkage .
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A PO hit something rather hard . My front rim had a pretty good 'ding' in the bead as well as being bent outward .
I tried cold manipulation with little to no effect , so I had to use Mapp gas to get the metal hot enough to work with ( red , actually kinda orange , hot ) .
Anyway , I was able to work it back into acceptably straight and useful condition .
There is rust pitting that will have to be dealt with , but that's minor compared to that bent rim .
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Here are a couple of 'after' shots of the front rim I straightened .
The ding was all of 1/4" deep and the bead was bent outward about the same distance . The arrows indicate the ding location .
I think it'll work , but if anyone sees something I'm not , please speak up .
The rust pitting is worse to the left . I'm not sure just how I'll deal with that , yet .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/j6v1yi6p5/HPIM1574.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/u56bgovah/HPIM1575.jpg)
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Not a bad looking repair.
regarding the rust pits, I used a tube of that "liquid metal" you can buy at hardware stores. I used it like body filler.....smear it on, let it dry, & sand it off. Took several applications to get the pitting filled up to acceptable levels (I should have applied some more, but got tired of it after about 4 days).
Mike Sal
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I was kind of thinking something like that , too , Mike .
Maybe Gorilla glue ?
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If I was going to powder coat the wheels, I would try body solder.
If I was painting them, I would go with a high build polyester primer. I have used Z-Chrome rust defender, really high build, almost need a garden hose to spray it.
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I'll be painting the wheels . I'll have to check into the high build polyester primer . Hmmm ... :)
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Just reading about seats ...
My seat is covered with a heavy vinyl or maybe Naugahyde ? with not much padding .
I was wondering when Simplex made the change from leather .
Here's a few seat pics :
Obviously , I haven't cleaned it , yet .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6zvwuoq5l/HPIM1580.jpg)
Only a single nickle sized rust spot next to the rear bolt hole on the left in the pic .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6oeghx9pl/HPIM1578.jpg)
And , this is the worst of it . :(
(https://s26.postimg.cc/tajrunnft/HPIM1581.jpg)
I also noticed that my tail light is period correct , but not Simplex correct . :(
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ditclcrqh/HPIM1582.jpg)
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Has anyone come up with a way to repair those plastic seats? I have one with similar damage, and I would like to fix it instead of recovering it in leather.
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I thought about a vinyl repair kit , but I'm not sure it would look anywhere close to decent .
Maybe something like this :
http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81781-Series-Leather-Repair/dp/B0007TQWK6/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_text_y
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I thought about a vinyl repair kit , but I'm not sure it would look anywhere close to decent .
Maybe something like this :
http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81781-Series-Leather-Repair/dp/B0007TQWK6/ref=pd_bxgy_auto_text_y
I read the reviews on this product, and it doesn't sound very promising.
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Go by a car dealership & find out who they use to make repairs on vinyl seats & upholstery. Who ever it is (usually an independant guy who travels around to several dearlers) will have a better brand of product for making repairs, along with the correct airbrush color dye to match the original. What every he charges will be well worth the money.
A few years ago we had one of these guys come to one of our Studebaker meetings & give a demonstration. He had a homemade "pillow" made from automotive vinyl & padding to use. He took a carpet knife & cut a 3 inch long cut into the vinyl & actually made a second cut to remove a 1/4 inch wide tapered strip from the middle.
He had a hole group of sample "textered" master pieces & he picked out the one that was the closest match to the original vinyl. He put some backing into the hole, mixed up some goop, slathered it into the hole & then pressed the master into the goop while it was still workable. In just a few minutes the goop had cured. He then mixed up a small batch of color dye to match the vinyl & airbrushed it on. The whole process was about 20 minutes. He then passed the pillow around the room to see if any of us could tell where the cut had been. I looked the thing over very carefully & was really impressed. The damage was completely gone.
My seat also has a very tiny cut on the edge (not nearly as bad as the one in the picture above). I'll probably live with it for a while.
Mike Sal
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That's the best idea I've heard , Mike .
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I second that idea!!
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Could one of you fine gentlemen please post a couple of decent pics of a rear rack ?
And maybe a few general measurements ?
I think a PO had some kind of rack on the back , but it wasn't there when I bought the bike .
There is at least one 'extra' hole in the rear fender that I can't account for .
You can see that hole about a foot ahead of the tail light and centered .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ditclcrqh/HPIM1582.jpg)
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Simplex racks do not require any extra holes in the fender, they bolt on to the fender mounting hole at the front of the fender, under the seat, and on the fender struts on the side. Check out some pictures of my bike on the site and you should be able to see it.
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That's what I thought from the pics and diagrams I've seen . I was wondering if maybe someone had a different ( aftermarket ) rack . I wouldn't think it very likely , but ...
I guess I can just put a reflector in that hole .
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(https://s26.postimg.cc/6tmt5c6eh/HPIM1583.jpg)
Can you tell that the soak tank is only as deep as about half the wheel height ?
After 24 hours in a very diluted acid bath ( 8 - 9 times as 'thin' as recommended ) and still the same oxalic acid that I started with , it's still working . The heaviest rust is still very noticeable inside the drum . The spokes seem to have been cleaned fairly well . No rust left on the rim or the soaked spokes . :)
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I took my headlight apart tonight . I assumed it was complete . Wrong . I removed the lens . No reflector , no bulb . The bucket was empty , but for the two connectors in the shell and a short piece of wire connecting them . Why a PO would have connected them is anybodies guess .
I've never had the light apart and never needed it as I always rode it during the day .
I'll be looking for a reflector , socket and bulb . :(
Just a few more things to add to the list .
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The light circuit is 6 volt correct ? And , what wattage are the lights ?
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I have two brands of bulbs. Both look the same. Westinghouse and Tungsol. Both are #2220.(number on headlight lens) When I got my bike the bulb was cracked so I removed the indexing ring and soldered it onto an #1154 bulb making sure that the contacts would align when installed. Then filed off the indexing pins that are on the sides. This got me by until I located the correct bulb.
The 4 bar is correct for '48. The 3 bar is for later models but not sure when they began using it. Or why. The height is the same for both at 14" from the lower mounting hole to top of bars. Overall width of 4 bar is 9 1/4" whereas the overall width of the 3 bar is
7 1/2". Length at the top is 13"(both). Upper bracket is .125"X1"X11" and the tube dia. .545"
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Excellent . On both counts . Thank You . :)
Would you happen to know what wattage(s) the tail light bulb is suppose to be ?
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I have GE #63s in my bike('48 takes two). I have the original rear lens but it does not show the number on it as the headlight lens does. The GE spec book shows the #63 to be as follows: G-6 style base, 7volt, 3 CP, .63 amps and a single filament. Somewhere I have the specs for the headlight bulb but in a different book(older).
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:) Thanks , again .
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I've been thinking about which color I want to paint the tank and fenders , etc.
I kinda like the original color , but , it's going to be a hard match .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8j0hr5bhl/HPIM1554.jpg)
And a question about the kick lever : did the levers originally come with a rubber cushion ? Or were they just bare metal ?
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And a question about the kick lever : did the levers originally come with a rubber cushion ? Or were they just bare metal ?
Bare metal.
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The late model bikes had a rubber sleeve on the kicker. Mine is still present, although scuffed up a little.
Mike Sal
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Mike , could you please post a pic of that 'sleeve' ?
And Thanks for the responses . :)
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The late model bikes had a rubber sleeve on the kicker. Mine is still present, although scuffed up a little.
Mike Sal
Mike, are you saying this based on your bike, or something else? The parts manuals that I have show no such part. I even checked the Simplex Sportsman kickstart assembly, which is about the last built, and it shows no such cover. Neither does the Three Wheel Truck manual.
If you are basing it on your bike, maybe someone in the past slipped a cover on yours from an early round brake pedal, or some other such cover?
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i agree, never saw rubber cover on one from factory
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Go to the "manuals & such" section, on subject titled "1957 Model 70 Truck" & go to post by rldbuse, dated August 25th @ 12:39. The fifth pic down is of a Sportsman which has the red plastic sleeve on the kicker, just like mine.
Mike Sal
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Mike , the sleeve on your bike is red also ? Could you post a good pic of that sleeve , please ?
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I'll shoot a picture of it tomorrow & post. Yes, it's red. I originally thought somebody put it on the bike, but after I saw a couple of pictures (like the one I mentioned), I figured it must have came that way from the factory.
Mike Sal
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Pd, that's a great color and any paint shop should be able to match the color. Just compound a small spot to get the best match on the color.
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Mike, very interesting and great eye!!
Does anyone have a 1958 Owners Manual? That, I believe, was the last manual that Simplex printed for the Powercycles. Maybe the cover is referenced in there?
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Pd, that's a great color and any paint shop should be able to match the color. Just compound a small spot to get the best match on the color.
I have thought about that route . Thanks . :)
I'm not positive , but it's possible that my tank :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8j0hr5bhl/HPIM1554.jpg)
came form the factory looking like this tank :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ez9gh8k15/1957_Simplex_Automaticmailer2.jpg)
I really like that blue . That ^ pic is from the 1957 mailer that Simplex sent out .
The front brake , speedometer and leather seat were extras that my bike does not have . :(
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Well my next bike will be a darker blue or maroon something dark with a matching frame. Front brakes are not hard to add easy step. Step one call Wayne done. I am still looking for a velvet tape that was on one of my frames that padded the tank from rubbing on the frame. I can find felt but not velvet and about 1/2inch wide so if anybody has a source for it give a shout. I would say I'm still trying to get this bike running before center sets in but hey i'm in Texas winters last 3 days here. I've got plenty of time to get it running. Lol ;D
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Rather than velvet , you might consider something like :
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cloth-tape/=keqnrp
The semiconductive might work nicely .
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That or you might try cutting some of this into strips and applying fabric cement .
http://www.syfabrics.com/View.aspx/Plush-Triple-Velvet/Black-Plush-Triple-Velvet/681/264
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Mike Sal suggested painting on the plastic dip that they sell to coat the handles of tools. I think this would work nicely, and be unobtrusive.
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In the manual section there is a 1960 manual posted that shows the exploded view of the kickstarter. It references the pedal cover(#1968) but does not show it in the illustration. Take a look.
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In the manual section there is a 1960 manual posted that shows the exploded view of the kickstarter. It references the pedal cover(#1968) but does not show it in the illustration. Take a look.
Tom, I just went and looked in some of my other manuals, and that cover, part # 1968, is listed as far back as the Simplex 125 manual, dated August 1, 1953.
Great catch to both Mike Sal and Tom!
Mike, where is that picture?
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Spent all weekend working on the garage doors on the new garage & didn't get any time to play on the toys......
But here's a couple shots of the plastic sleeve on the kicker. It looks a lot like garden hose type material, but has a pattern of ribbs & spaces on the outer surface. Some of mine are worn off. You may also notice there is some green (I think.....I'm color blind) color on the sleeve also, but it appears to be a coating & the base material is red.
Mike Sal
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Thanks Mike! I wonder if Wayne has those available?
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What I didn't show was the back side of the sleeve, which would have revealed the scratches from where the kicker has hit the ground at the bottom of the stroke over the years.
Mike Sal
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Interesting enough . Thanks Mike and Tom .
Now all we have to do is find some heavy walled red ribbed garden hose . ;)
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A little proof that the PO hit something fairly hard :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/imkm9k2uh/HPIM1592.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/oc0utv90p/HPIM1590.jpg)
How they mungered the tail of the fender is beyond me .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/z04lspizt/HPIM1591.jpg)
After I beat on the fender for a while with a ball peen and a homemade mandrel :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/bzxygdl61/HPIM1594.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/7fbs1g1gp/HPIM1595.jpg)
Maybe good enough that a bit of filler will smooth things out .
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I used a old chisel with a rounded head and a brick to hold it upright and just tap tap tap till it was done. Just make sure to get the spacing on the pinstriping if you are planning to go that way. You did a good job on that fender. 8)
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Thanks . :)
I've been looking for some almond colored pin stripping , but haven't had much luck .
You know of a source ? Anyone ?
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Tape did you say tape lets not say that anymore. If you would like to try something I have a Beugler pinstriping tools that you could use. I got it to do my stripping until I went the pc route and they did all my stripping for me. Google it and see if you would like to try it and I will lone it to you as long as you need it for your bike.
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That looks like a great tool .
Yes , I'd like to give that a try . I'll gmail you and we'll go from there .
Thank You for the generous offer . :)
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Here's something that has me wondering :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/s29oe8zmx/HPIM1596.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/c5awhj78p/HPIM1597.jpg)
That is my exhaust manifold . Notice how the outlet is oval shaped .
Were they made that way and if so why ?
Can mine be heated and reformed to a round profile ?
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I have an idea that would eliminate the need for a round outlet profile .
I'm thinking about constructing a dual walled pipe . The outer wall will slip over the manifold to the shoulder and the inner pipe will butt against the end of the manifold .
I'll use an exhaust 'gasket'/seal for the butt joint .
I will not use a clamp or the OEM bolt to fasten the pipe to the manifold . Rather , I will use threaded rod anchored inside the manifold and run through the inner pipe into a cross member in the muffler . This method will provide a cleaner and more secure exhaust , albeit , not exactly OEM .
To help you understand , here's a drawing of the exhaust similar to what I'll be building . Looking from above .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8o8uek86h/Simplexexhaustdrawing.jpg)
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I think that would work.
The bolt on the exhaust manifold is not needed on the dual tailpipe muffler as the front is supported by a bracket that attaches to one of the engine bolts.
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I saw something about that in the parts book . I just want to insure a good seal at the manifold and muffler . The through rod/bolt will provide the pressure needed , along with extra support .
I am still at a loss as to why the oval shape of the manifold .
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I think the oval shape was the result of an injury somewhere along the line after it was molded, either at the factory or by a PO. If I was going to try to straighten it, I think I'd take a piece of hard wood, cut a round hole in it the same diamter that the tube is supposed to be, then cut the wood in half (maybe cutting an 1/8" from one side. Use one side as the anvil & the other for the top "punch". Put the manifold in the anvil with the "widest" direction vertically oriented. If you have a hydraulic press, use it to ease the blocks of wood together (if no press, put it all into a vice & try to crank the vice closed......& if no vice, use a hammer). Don't try to get it perfect, as aluminum doesn't bend a 2nd time very well.
Mike Sal
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I would think that it must have been pretty darn warm when that injury happened . Cold , that thick aluminum is kinda stubborn .
Thanks for the 'form' suggestion . I've used that in the past with decent results , but on different materials .
Being as this would be the second bend , I think I'll leave it alone and go ahead with the dual wall idea . Then , other than the end being flat/flush , shape won't matter .
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Working on my transmission this evening , I noticed what seemed a little too much play of the moveable sheave on the main 'shaft' .
How much play should there be ?
I would think the brass bushings are available .
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I took some measurements . That moveable sheave bushing has .008" play . That just seems a bit too sloppy , to me .
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Anyone ?
Does anyone know what the measurements of a new bushing / sleeve are ?
Or , am I being too picky ?
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,008" doesn't sound too excessive to me. But how does that clearance relate at the pulley. Meaning, when you put all of the clearance to one side does it become too noticeable at the vee part of the pulley causing concern for the belt. I would think the belt might be quite forgiving and you will be OK.
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Thanks for your input . :)
The clearance seems excessive , but , there is no lube which might take up as much as .0015" ( maybe a bit more ) .
I have to agree , the belt will or should absorb a good bit of play as it will encompass a bit over half the pulley surface when active .
I'll run it as is and note how things run out .
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To add to the previous post , the governors ( roller throw out weights ) will also help to keep the moveable sheave running true . Probably more so in the double track transmission , which my bike has .
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What is the best method for changing the transmission bearings ?
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Do the transmission bearings sit in a landing or are they in a straight walled tube with the axle spacer tube holding them in place ?
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A side note : I've found that my MT-9B carb , that was on my bike when I bought it , was used on a 1951 Power Power mower : Tillotson MT9B . ( http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/IndustrialkitsP.htm )
And , the MT-48A carb was used from late '52 thru '56 on the 60 Series Cushman scooters .
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Do the transmission bearings sit in a landing or are they in a straight walled tube with the axle spacer tube holding them in place ?
Nearly a week and 189 views ... still not a single response to my questions . :(
I have to assume that no one knows the answers . Thanks , anyway .
I was able to free the transmission bearings after removing the bearing shields and applying heat to help evacuate the old grease . I then liberally applied brake cleaner to both now open bearings . I'm left with a very slight growl , but the transmission spins freely on the bearings , so , I'll run the old bearings after I pack them with a molybdenum based assembly grease and reinsert the previously removed shields .
FYI :
1 : The parts drawing seems to indicate the main tube is 'stepped' and that each bearing has it's own landing . Considering the tight tube to race clearances , that would not allow a 'drive through' bearing removal .
I'm not sure even an internal bearing puller would work due to the tight clearances between the inner bearing races and the internal 'guide' tube .
2 : The automatic transmission bearings have only the outside shields . The small hole in the right side of the main tube allows lube to both bearings . I verified that fact by shinning a light through the open bearing section on one end and seeing a bright small beam through the bearing on the other end .
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Since I didn't have to remove my bearings, I didn't really know how to answer you. I wondered what that little hole was for.....it seem too far away from the bearings to be for oiling, but it seem to be the only logical explanation. I would think it would be an oily mess to pump oil into the hole & then ride......won't the centrifical force spray a lot of it all over the place?
I think your growlly bearings probably should be replaced. The noise indicates the races & balls are no longer smooth. I would think you could get the inner spacer out of the way, then use a long drift to come in from one side & knock out the one on the other side.
Lots-o-luck
Mike Sal
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I have changed the bearings on 2 transmission, and I just pushed them out with a drift. They came right out, and I put the new ones in with a plastic face hammer.
If you need to remove the outer, non movable aluminum pulley, this is done by removing the snap ring, if yours has one, and then heating the pulley with a propane torch. The pulley will then slide right off. Reinstall by heating the pulley again, and it slides right on with a slight tap of the mallet.
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Mike ,
Drifting the bearings out from either end was my plan . I did try moving the inner tube . But it's very tightly lodged between the two bearing inner races to the point of both bearings inner races moving simultaneously .
Heck , I even bought new bearings in anticipation . :(
As for the small hole in the main tube , I think it's meant for lubing . Probably with a thick oil , occasionally . If there's a problem with oil seepage , the hole could be plugged with a small amount of grease . That hole is just the right size to accept the small red concentration/directional tube that comes with a number of spray lubes .
Rick ,
I couldn't get any catch on the inner races . There wasn't enough clearance for the edge if the drift to hold . Maybe I'll just have to get more aggressive .
I've already removed the non-moveable sheave per your directions in another thread . Thanks for that . :)
Makes cleaning the main tube a lot easier .
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I was able to push the inner tube over without any hard force. As a matter of fact, when I reassemble the trans on the shaft, I need to make sure the tube is lined up correctly, as the shaft gets hung up going back in.
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Success !!!
I used a little different leverage point and a bigger hammer to get the inner tube to move enough for a decent driving point . Both old bearings are now laying on the bench , crying to be tossed . That tube was in there pretty dang good . A lot tighter than I thought it would be .
I have to dig my grease gun out so I can do a proper job of packing the new bearings before I install them . They come with 'some' grease packed , but there's plenty room for more .
I'm really glad I got the old ones out as they are worse than they seemed when still installed .
I figured that I'd have to use the bolt the bearings will ride on as a guide for aligning the inner tube while installing the new bearings .
Thanks for the 'encouragement' . 8)
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What, no picture??? LOL Let's see your transmission. The two I have done are different from the one Mike Sal has.
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Ask and ye shall rec... ;)
Here's a pic of my double track automatic transmission in it's current state , sans the two governors and associated guides & bolts :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/hpnds663t/HPIM1604.jpg)
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Can we get some comparison pics , please ?
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Can we get some comparison pics , please ?
Pictures and a discussion of this is here: http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=223.30
Sorry, the pictures I posted were not the greatest.
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Has anyone found the fixed pulley with the bushings in a parts manual? The manuals I have show part # 2290, which is for the single track fixed pulley, and this includes bearings and bolts according to the book. Part # 2290B is for the double track clutch, and just lists the pulley with bolts, but no mention of bearings or a bushing. Interesting, part # 2290 was $8.95, whereas #2290B was $6.80, which would lead one to believe that it might contain a bushing, which would have been cheaper. I wonder why they don't show the bushing separately though?
Come on Mike Sal, I know you love these mysteries?
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Can we get some comparison pics , please ?
Pictures and a discussion of this is here: http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=223.30
Sorry, the pictures I posted were not the greatest.
Thanks for that Rick .
I thought I'd read most of this site . Guess that's one I haven't . :)
About the fixed pulley , I have the same info , Rick .
And then the mystery of the double bushing ...
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Rocker clutches are way easier! LoL
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Rocker clutches are way easier! LoL
Except when you have to ride one! What was that SQEEEEEELING??? Oh, that was Tom engaging his rocker clutch!! LOL
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I have read that Automatic Transmission thread prior . I posted in that thread a few times . DOH ...
Halfhiemers is the only explanation for my forgetfulness . ;)
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I have read that Automatic Transmission thread prior . I posted in that thread a few times . DOH ...
Halfhiemers is the only explanation for my forgetfulness . ;)
I didn't want to mention that, I thought it would be bad form! LOL
We are getting to be a good database of info on here, more than I thought when Bob got the site started 2 years ago.
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Agreed . The deeper and longer we dig , the more 'gold' we find . ;)
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Ok I'm set for Portland got the time off. So I will be needing some info to make this work. Who do I call to reserve a spot, is there power outlets, what is the cost on entry, should I book a room some place, and where is it held in Portland? ???
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All good questions Reese . I'd like to have the answers myself as there is a possibility that I might be able to make Portland , too .
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Well I am planning on bringing two bikes if possible and lots of questions and stories. 8)
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Rick, so far I've not found anymore than you regarding the bushings....
Re: Portland. It shouldn't be too much longer before they post the registration forms for this summer's meet (19 thru 24 July). Judging from last year, there are adequate camp sites, but don't expect to get one with any shade....all the old timers have them scooped up. I know that they added a lot more power hook ups, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem either. If your shopping for parts, especially Simplex parts, getting there early is paramont. The 3 Simplex "old timers" who were there last year had every Simplex part (except frames) scooped up by Thursday, before the meet offically starts.
They are working on a new website (the old one is limp). www.vintagemotorbikeclub.org
Mike Sal
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I bought a camp pass through VMBC. I camped right by Simplex Hill. There were some outlets. And showers. I got there early. Drove in and parked!. One time when I went to Portland I asked where should I park. They replied, "anywhere". So once you clear the gate don't be bashful. Be sure to bring your current membership card to get free each day. I have stayed at the Super 8 in Portland a couple of times. It was nice. I think it is called the Portland Inn now. I won't be monkeying around this year and will drive straight to the grounds! Be sure to go down to the judging building and register to vote on the bikes there. They will give you One of the miniature plates that has VMBC on it and the year of the show.
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Great . Thanks for the info Guys . Hopefully , I can make it to Portland without too much hassle . :)
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Reese ,
While I was cutting a new gasket for the compression plate , I noticed that the plate didn't want to settle nicely onto the motor case mating surface . Taking a closer look , the plate and the mating surface were not meeting as they should . The plate was slightly bent and the motor mating surface seemed a bit higher toward the outside of the 'circle' . Using the best straight edge I have ( a high quality dial caliper ) , I confirmed that I was right . I carefully used my best flat file to level the surface , double checking with the caliper edge as I progressed . Once satisfied it was as level as I was going to get it , I laid the plate in place and tapped it into a more correct form . At least now a gasket would be able to do it's job .
That process had me looking farther . I checked the motor carburetor mount and found a similar situation . I flattened the mount and test fit the carb in place only to find that the carb mounting flange was wrapped to the point that a gasket would have done absolutely no good at sealing the joint ( also confirmed by the caliper edge ) . I took the carb to the belt sander and rough leveled the mating surface , finishing the job with the flat file and a check with the caliper edge of both the motor carb mount and the carb flange mounting surfaces . Now a gasket is hardly needed , but I'll use one just because I already have one cut .
What really puzzles me is the fact that I rode the bike with this motor and carb 47 years ago . How it ran then , I have no idea .
Anyway , all this somehow reminded me of your motor running poorly and I thought that possibly you might have the same type things causing your motor problems . You said that you checked everything else . Did you check these things ?
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You are on to something there pd. Being a machinist my whole life I have always paid close attention to nice machined surfaces and good strong threads that hold them together. Even when I am not able to machine something I will still use 220 grit sandpaper and flat sand it on a surface plate. It's not always safe to expect the gasket to assume the warpage.
I bet you're anxious to be sittin' on your bike and feel the wind in your face once again!
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Be careful when tightening the screws on both the carb and compression plate. Use some gasket sealer & just snug them enough to do the job. Those flanges (especially the carb) love to warp. Now that you've filed some material off of them to regain flatness, they are that much weaker to resist bending again.
Kartjockey, having a piece of emery paper glued to a flat metal plate has always been one of my "tools" of the trade.
Mike Sal
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" I bet you're anxious to be sittin' on your bike and feel the wind in your face once again! "
You can bet on it , Tom . ;) I have other 'cycles' but none that are so much a piece of my memories . It will be great when it happens .
" Be careful when tightening " Thanks for the reminder , Mike .
That's one of the first things I learned when I started using leverage ( wrenches ) . I'd tell myself " just a little bit more " and then "crap , how do I fix this ? " LOL So , I learned , the hard way .
As for the flanges , true , they are a bit weaker by themselves , but having both mating surfaces flat / flush should add strength to the joint . Hopefully the carb will not have to be 'single' for long . ;)
I appreciate your input , guys . Thanks .
Pete . :)
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I too have wondered about how the compression was sealing. I have seen oil dripping from the plate and wondered if I should be using a rtv sealent. If I can get back to it I would like to try that new plate I got for it. Its really thick and should not bend or give way very easy. Also if I am undering standing what I am reading if you are a member of the VMBC you can come and go without paying that is after you pay the entry fee??? Also seeing that I'm not a member yet should I try to join now or when I get there??? Well I got six months and a boat load of questions to ask... ???
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Reese, join now. It's only $25 and just show the ID card they send you for free daily admission to the show. This does not include camping though, that is extra.
With a VMBC membership, you get the quarterly magazine and membership book.
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Rick, ok I will get that in the mail soon. and if all goes well and my wife is up for it we should be there by Sunday morning if not late Saturday night. The last time I went to that part of the country it was a three day event to get there u-haul trucks don't go very fast. So anything y'all can think I should do before then give a shout out. K :)
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A bit of progress :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/gnhsndco9/HPIM1612.jpg)
That's my transmission , assembled and functional . :)
Prior to putting it together , I installed my version of :
(http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=223.0;attach=1225;image)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ohmzmi9ux/HPIM1611.jpg)
Cut from :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/5dto65x0p/HPIM1613.jpg)
And fits :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/vuxs7q4ix/HPIM1610.jpg)
I think it'll do the job nicely . It's very absorbent and won't come apart very quick .
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Looking Good!
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This thread (or topic) sure has spiraled off in many tangents hasn't it. There are some good posts & information in the many pages which probably should go into specific categories to avoid getting lost in the future.
Mike Sal
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Your clutch rebuild is looking great! Does the clutch bracket attach to the out side of the frame on both sides on the 56 model?
Ken
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Is that sponge material compatible with grease & oil? You don't want that thing turning to goo.
Hmmm.....the tranny hoop bracket......don't know if it's correct or not, but mine is on the outside on the left side and on the inside on the passenger's side.
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Mike, the manual shows it just like yours is. I have looked at pictures on the net and my bracket is spread a little wide so I was a little confused. I did not take the bike apart so I just wanted to make sure. I'm waiting for a new drive belt and then will be installing my clutch assembly.
Thanks for clarifying my question.
Ken
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Thanks Ken .
I believe the bracket attaches the same as on my '57 , which is outside on the left and inside on the right .
Mike ,
that does not seem to have been affected by petroleum products . I have used them for cleanup and they don't show any signs of deterioration . I don't expect there will be very much 'sling' oil , but I'll check it after a while anyway .
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PD, did you flip your moveable pulley side (the one with the square part on the backside to interact with the counterweights)? When I had mine apart, I noticed that the weights had worn small grooves into the flats on the square part, so I flipped mine 90 degrees so a nice flat surface is now against the weights.
Mike Sal
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Sure did , Mike .
I noticed that the weights had also worn the back side of the sheave where they would meet it at all out position . Those were likely coincidental to hollows ( for a lack of a better word ) in the weight 'ramps' / guides . The hollows were exactly where the weights would have spent time making the wear makes . I used my handy angle grinder to smooth those hollows and of course change the ramp radius slightly ( hopefully not too much ) . The weights seem to migrate , from stop position to all out , seamlessly . I guess I'll know just how well , or not , I did when I get to take her for her second maiden run .
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I asked this question before and haven't gotten an answer , as far as I know .
So here it is again : What is the size of the venturi of the OEM Tillotson MT1 carbs ? At least a close educated estimate .
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I guess it might be a bit easier if someone could simply post a pic of the MT1 carb inlet with the choke wide open .
I'd really appreciate it . Thanks in advance . :)
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I guess it might be a bit easier if someone could simply post a pic of the MT1 carb inlet with the choke wide open .
I'd really appreciate it . Thanks in advance . :)
The reason I haven't posted it, is because I'm not certain, but I think it is 7/8". Do NOT take this as gospel.
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Thanks for that , Rick .
But , there may be a misunderstanding of what I mean by venturi . I mean the 'neck down' about half way through the carb , between the choke plate and the throttle plate . That is the portion that helps meter and determine air flow .
7/8" would be about the size of the initial inlet immediately after the air filter .
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Giovanni Battista Venturi, an 18th century Italian physicist, didn't give a rip about carburetors, but his discovery is what makes carburetion possible. He learned that when fluid flows through a constricted space, it creates a low-pressure, high-velocity area at the constriction. This is precisely what happens in a carburetor's venturi, allowing air and fuel to be drawn into the motor.
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I am well versed in venturi's principle, as I spent years running a drag car with both down draft and side draft weber and dellorto carburetors. ;D. I don't have an extra mt1d sitting on the shelf to go measure, and I do not want to pull the one off my bike, as it is a pain in the ass.
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Pd I will be at home after four me thinks I've got a mt1 that is off plus a couple more. I will check them all and post the findings. 8)
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Rick ,
So , you like the smell of 'nitrous' in the morning ? ;)
I didn't mean to offend anyone . Simply clarify what I meant and maybe help educate a fellow or two .
And , Thanks , Reese . :)
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Here's a pic to show the difference between the venturis of the MT9 on the right and the MT48 .
You can easily see the 48 is nearly twice as 'open' .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8alak6s89/HPIM1614.jpg)
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Can't offend me, I'm too dumb to notice! Lol. No nitrous, just Turbochargers.
I do have a Carpenter Cushman replacement carb which I will measure tomorrow. These are made for 4 stroke engines, but can be modified for our 2 strokes by drilling additional holes in the metering rod, like the original. Wayne has told me he has had Great success using these carbs, which are available for $100 and can be had with the fuel inlet on the top, like a stock MT1D.
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Interesting!! What is trying to be accomplished? Are you trying to use a different carburetor or increase the Venturi to gain performance?
Ken
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Ok pd of the five on hand mt1d has a 5/8 opening, the mt33a has a 1/2 opening, and the mt56a has a 5/8 opening also. But the mt56a and the mt33a has its vent come out in the venturl to where the mt1d vents under the carb. Don't know if it makes any difference but they are there. Hope this helps. ???
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Sorry for the size I thought my camera was still set for the smaller size. My bad. :'(
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Good you have a sense of humor , Rick . :D
That Carpenter carb info will be a nice addition to the knowledge bank .
The MT48 carb I have came off a Cushman model C ( 4 stroke ) . I haven't had that one apart ,yet , but I'll note the metering when I do .
Ken ,
Simply trying to expand possibilities .
I don't have an OEM MT1 carb . I do have an MT9 and an MT48 . If one of these will work nicely , I'll use it . If not , we'll be the wiser .
I'm just trying to gain knowledge about these carbs so I can make an educated guess at which one or the other or both should do the best job on my motor and in the process add to the collective information on this site and about our bikes . If a performance gain happens , it'll be icing on the cake . ;)
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Thanks , again , Reese . :)
The first pic is of the MT33 and the second is the MT1 ?
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Thanks for clarifying. I was a little confused. I enjoy reading and seeing your progress.
Ken
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I did make a little more progress today . My crankcase now has new bearings . :)
I used our grill to heat the unit and finally got it to settle in at about 425° . I let the crankcase sit in there for about 15 - 20 minutes . When I put the hot crankcase on the bench to remove the old bearings , they literally fell out . Thinking that was way too easy , I hurriedly dropped the new bearings into place . They were kind of loose at first , so I quickly inserted the crank , slipped the seal race in place and spun the drive pulley on to hold the bearings where they were suppose to be , until everything cooled .
Prior to all that I had dropped the crankcase into a pine oil bath for a day or so . Pine oil does an excellent job of cleaning aluminum , but it will rust steel in short order . I wasn't worried about the old bearings as they were to be replaced anyway . Pine oil is a little trick I learned a few years ago when having to rebuild a bank of in line four constant velocity carbs for my CB750C . I also soaked that MT9 carb in the pine oil vat after stripping it to bare body . Came out smelling like , well , fresh pine . ;) And , clean to boot .
You can see the difference . Notice the ends of the carbs were the air filter attaches . The MT9 on the right was simply soaked in the pine oil vat and rinsed with hot water . No more grunge .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8alak6s89/HPIM1614.jpg)
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Hmmmm.....Pine oil eh.....I'll give that a try. I've never heard about that trick before. Thanks,
Mike Sal
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Mike ,
Use real original PineSol , unless you have access to some higher percentage commercial stuff . The cheaper pine cleaners do not do near as good a job . I've tried them . Some guys use it straight , but I like a watered down solution . About one PineSol to 2 waters seems to work . If you're doing carb bodies , I let them dry and then blow all the passages out with flammable brake cleaner ( the non flammable stuff isn't worth a hoot ) , followed by a good amount of compressed air . I use brake cleaner because it's easy on rubber parts , evaporates quickly and leaves no residue . READ and heed THE LABEL .
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I did make a little more progress today . My crankcase now has new bearings . :)
I used our grill to heat the unit and finally got it to settle in at about 425° . I let the crankcase sit in there for about 15 - 20 minutes . When I put the hot crankcase on the bench to remove the old bearings , they literally fell out . Thinking that was way too easy , I hurriedly dropped the new bearings into place . They were kind of loose at first , so I quickly inserted the crank , slipped the seal race in place and spun the drive pulley on to hold the bearings where they were suppose to be , until everything cooled .
Just like I told you!
I estimated the measurement on the replacement carb today. As close as I can tell, it is 5/8" through the venturi. Here are some pictures of it, along with the part #. Notice the throttle linkage is adjustable, just loosen the screw and move it to where needed.
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Yup . Just like you told me . Actually the process went a bit better than I had expected as I had the drift and hammer ready for the job of removing the old bearings and only used the hammer handle to bump the new bearings , insuring they were seated . A pleasant surprise . :)
That Carpenter carb seems a pretty close match to the MT48 carb I have . Is that a dual option for the fuel fitting ?
And , the pic of the metering tube is a bit blurry . I can't tell exactly how many sets of holes there are .
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Yup . Just like you told me . Actually the process went a bit better than I had expected as I had the drift and hammer ready for the job of removing the old bearings and only used the hammer handle to bump the new bearings , insuring they were seated . A pleasant surprise . :)
That Carpenter carb seems a pretty close match to the MT48 carb I have . Is that a dual option for the fuel fitting ?
And , the pic of the metering tube is a bit blurry . I can't tell exactly how many sets of holes there are .
The carb can be ordered either top or side inlet, but does not have a dual option, because only one is tapped.
The Cushman carb comes with 2 holes, so you must drill 2 more, just like the factory model for the Simplex did. Look in the manual, part # 886D and you can see them.
I hear you on the bearings. I used a piece of pine to tap mine in, as it is soft and wouldn't scar the bearing if I slipped.
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I just checked the meter tubes I have .
The left is from the MT48 and the right is from the MT9 .
It seems that the holes in the MT9 are slightly bigger than those in the MT48 .
Also , the position of the holes in the MT48 is higher than those of the Carpenter carb , but , I don't think that would make any difference .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/avqv7phm1/HPIM1619.jpg)
At this point , it seems the MT48 will be the closest to OEM . I guess the final test will be if either carb will actually allow the motor to run and then , how well .
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I just checked the meter tubes I have .
The left is from the MT48 and the right is from the MT9 .
It seems that the holes in the MT9 are slightly bigger than those in the MT48 .
Also , the position of the holes in the MT48 is higher than those of the Carpenter carb , but , I don't think that would make any difference .
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1619.jpg)
At this point , it seems the MT48 will be the closest to OEM . I guess the final test will be if either carb will actually allow the motor to run and then , how well .
I would use the MT48 and drill two more holes the same size below the two that are already there. That is what I did to the Cushman carb. I'd bet you could get it to run on the MT9 tube with no modification, if indeed the holes are slightly bigger.
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Those were pretty much the same thoughts I had , Rick .
I thought about trying the MT9 tube in the MT48 carb . Extra holes can always be made . I'll have to compare needles and such to see if anything else is different . The carb bodies look very similar , but the MT48 seems to have an extra hole in the intake just behind the closed throttle plate . I'm thinking that that is part if the idle circuit .
Those meter tube holes look exactly the same in real time as they do in the pic . I'll have to see about getting a drill index and that should tell me what the differences are .
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I think I've found the color for my bike .
Medium Sapphire Blue Metallic
Here's a sample against the original paint :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/o2gb78dbd/HPIM1620.jpg)
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The shade looks right, but did the factory really use any metallics in their paint back then?
Mike Sal
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pd
Thats going to be a looker when your done, what did you settle on the rim color, and are you matching the pully to the rim or tins? ???
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I don't believe they used any metallic back then. Simplex was always looking to save money, so they could produce their product as cheaply as possible.
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It's actually a shade lighter than the original and just a bit brighter . The metal 'flake' is very fine . In fact , I didn't know it was metallic until I read the label . Knowing the factory would paint a bike any color for an extra fee , I don't think my choice is to much of a stretch .
I think I'll do the rims in Almond , but that's still a maybe . I like the richer tone of the Bright Idea . I want to see how the Almond looks with the Sapphire .
And , I haven't decided on the pulley , yet . Currently it is bare metal . It does have a nice sheen to it and if it'll match the spokes , I may just clear coat it . I believe it was originally black . That's a possibility .
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The night before last , I tore both the MT9 and MT48 carbs completely apart and soaked the bodies overnight in the pine oil solution . Rinsed them with hot water and scrubbed lightly .
All the brass and needles polished up bright .
A PO had peened the choke plate pivot rod end over the lever on the MT48 , thereby eliminating any possibility of ever using a proper screw that is suppose to lock the lever to the top of the rod .
Of course , the lever was not secured to the rod and was unacceptably sloppy , almost to the point of being nonfunctional . I had little choice but to solder the lever and rod together . Now there is no slop .
I switched the meter tube ( closer to 'spec' ) and both needles from the MT9 to the MT48 as both needles where wrong in the MT48 . The MT48 is the closest 'match' of the two carbs to an MT1 OEM carb .
Anyway , here's the finished , ready for service carb ( hopefully , it'll do the job ) and what a days worth of tinkering looks like :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/t2drf6iy1/HPIM1625.jpg)
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Hey , it's starting to look like a motor , again :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ezwvxbjvt/HPIM1626.jpg)
One of my favorite ham-fisted POs took his toll on the top rear cooling fins . What you see missing were all cracked and jagged at the head surface . Nothing to really build on , so I simply leveled them off as best I could .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/lrnb068vd/HPIM1627.jpg)
If anyone has a viable suggestion as to fin replacement , I'd sure like to hear it . TIA. :)
I'm working on the stator .
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Tig Weld the fins back on.
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If there were any fins to weld back on , tig would be the way to do it .
I suppose I could find a roached air cooled head from something and borrow some fins .
I also thought of maybe forming a block of aluminum in that opening and then cutting 'slots' .
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Question :
What is the measurement between the transmission hanger arms suppose to be ?
An additional question :
The transmission axle spacer on the far right side , what is it's width ?
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I may be off a bit , but I think the inside width of the transmission arms is close to 5 7/8" .
As for the spacer , I'll just measure what's left for space and what's needed for pulley alignment and go from there .
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I sanded and repainted my frame last night . High Gloss Black .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/67fx9myqx/HPIM1629.jpg)
Before I did that , there were a few dents , dings and scratches in the frame tubing . Mostly on the crash bars . I filled them in with solder and filed them flush . That works pretty good , as I can't tell exactly where they were after painting . :)
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Looking GOOD!! Your bike is going to be real nice..
Ken
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Thanks , Ken . :)
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Working on my Phelon stator . I want to check the coils , but I can't find any values to go by .
Does anyone know what resistances I need to have ?
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Another question :
Where is the kick start return spring anchor end suppose to seat ?
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The spring rest on the crankcase and needs to be wound. The outer end of the spring connects to the lower part of the kick starter at the crank shaft end of the kick starter.
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Thanks for the reply , Ken .
The spring I have doesn't seem to be able to reach the crankcase . There is a hole at about 4 o'clock in the outer kick shaft mount plate that would be a logical 'hooking' location , but the spring sits pretty cockeyed and doesn't go into the hole as far as it seems it should .
Maybe I'm trying to mount it backwards . It seems logical that the hook end of the spring hooks around the underside of the kick lever and the other end should have a good hold somewhere on the frame .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/urrwkd4yx/HPIM1630.jpg)
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The tail of mine goes against the bottom plate, not the crankcase.
Mike Sal
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Well my spring is straight on its end and I still had problems getting it into both holes. If your shaft goes in and out easy remove the shaft thread your spring then add the shaft then kicker. Mainly its shear luck to get it in place.
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Looks like I have some more exploring to do .
Thanks , Guys . :)
I'll post how mine ends up .
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I didn't like how the kick spring seated any way I tried , so I created a simple remedy . I drilled a hole about twice the diameter of the spring wire ( looks a lot bigger in the pic ) . The hole you see in the shaft mount plate at about 5 o'clock was there , probably from the factory . I simply used that hole as a guide for the through hole I drilled . The spring now seats very nicely and is secure . I used Reese's method for mounting the spring as it wouldn't be possible with the shaft installed . Thanks Reese . Reese might recognize the 'paper' I used as a backdrop . ;)
Sorry for the poor pic . Two hands and three things to do , kinda thing .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/crnatq25l/HPIM1632.jpg)
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Was your kick shaft welded into the frame, or just held with the bolt. Mine was welded (on both sides) to the motor plate in addition to the bolt.
I still haven't found where I hid my bugler stripe tool.....I still don't have the stripes on my rims.....
Mike Sal
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My kick shaft is just bolted , no welds , fortunately . I read in one of your posts about that weld job .
I was just reading the instructions / tips in preparation for trying my hand at stripping and that booklet was the closest light colored piece when I needed it to show the through hole . :)
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My stripe tool was made by Bugler, but sold thru Sears & Roebuck. It's driving me crazy looking for it......
Let us know how yours turn out. What paint & how much thinner works the best for you?
Mike Sal
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Will do , Mike .
I have to pick up paint . It might be a week before I get into town . The closest place is about 24 miles away , on a good day ( bad day , it might be a lot farther ) . :)
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I also have a Beugler stripping tool. Go to a sign painter's store to purchase the paint. I have a VHS instructional tape for this tool if anyone needs it, or it might be available from their website. Mike
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Thanks for the tip , Mike . :)
I've been getting the wheels ready for service .
Last night I was working on the rear wheel and found that I had no dust cap for the bearings inside the brake hub .
I had the round piece of sponge that was left from cutting the sponge doughnut for the transmission . It is just the right size to overlap the hub housing for the bearing cup , so I cut a hole to accommodate the axle and slipped it into place . Excellent dust seal as well as grease catch .
Looking at the rubber I might put on the rims , I inspected what I have . The 55 year old original equipment inner tubes are holding air nicely and not a patch on them . Amazing .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/4d7o5n149/HPIM1636.jpg)
The tires are not even weather checked . The rear is a bit worn and the front is like new . I believe the front had been replaced when the PO hit what ever it was that bent the rim . I can still read the Simplex Servi Cycle lettering on the center rib .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ed2kljcdl/HPIM1638.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/obnj80lt5/HPIM1640.jpg)
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In prepping to paint the fenders and tank , I'm using a high build primer suggested by Rick . Thanks for that , Rick . :)
That stuff is doing a nice job of filling scratches and small 'imperfections' . I am using multiple coats for the more serious dings and rust pits that didn't want to come out with the mandrel and hammer . So far , I think it's much easier to work with than body filler , like Bondo and it happens to be a lot less costly as well .
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Gentlemen ,
The rear fender requires a spacer at it's lower front mount . Could someone please do me a favor by measuring that spacer and posting it's length ?
Thanks ,
Pete . :)
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Another question : ( one no one will have to go out to the garage to answer )
The throttle control : is it spring loaded to return to idle as on a standard motorcycle or is it a friction set type , where it stays where it's set as on a lawnmower or garden tractor ?
It seems , from reading the brochures and such , that it was meant to be a friction set type control , but ...
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Pd,I don't think they used springs on the carbs. They look to have two types of control oalne cable that attached to the top and you twisted it till it idle down. Then you have the hard wire that forces it to the idle point. Me I have a mini bike control on mine that has a braided cable that will not close with out a return spring, but there's no place to mount a spring. Except to put one over the cable to help it return close. So hope this helps. Reese
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The cable works as a push-pull. No return spring. I think of it as built in cruise control!
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OK , Thanks guys .
I thought it was a 'cruise control' type , but wasn't positive . I couldn't find any type of spring in the parts book .
I'd thought about just going with a motorcycle / minibike twist control like Reese has , but I like the idea of concealed cables to preserve the clean look .
Anyway , I developed a push / pull type control where the right grip slides up and down ( on and off ) the handlebar instead of around the bar .
Here are the parts :
The black tubes ( grips ) are pieces of aluminum tubing I salvaged from a broken collapsible canopy leg .
The brown pieces and the grip end plugs are hard wood salvaged from an old broom handle . These are held in the tube(s) by a few brass brads which are removable if service is needed . The piece on the cable is a centering plug that keeps the cable from too much bend while in service . The honed out piece fits on the tapered side of the cable end knob and the flat side of the knob sits against the grip end plug .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/bgk4yzvxl/HPIM1650.jpg)
Here is the cable and control together :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/chkdo4cx5/HPIM1648.jpg)
And here they are on the handlebar :
This pic shows the throttle closed :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6vxyk2c89/HPIM1651.jpg)
This pic shows the throttle wide open :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ykklrkz8p/HPIM1656.jpg)
From closed to wide open position is a little more than an inch .
The control and cable end are held in place by a set screw against the cable where it enters / exits the handlebar , close to the handlebar mount . No springs involved . ;)
p.s. : I'm thinking of covering the tubes ( grips ) with thin foam like is used on bicycle handlebar covering .
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The only thing I have against this set up is that your peg board is way too organized.....what other devious "non-man" crimes might you be hiding?????
Mike Sal
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Ha , it's a good thing you can't see my work bench . It's a very well organized mess . ;D
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My spacer for the fender is 1/2" to 3/4". I angled mine but not sure of the original.
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Thanks for the reply Dwayne . :)
I think the factory used a straight cut spacer and the portion of the fender was bent in to parallel the brace .
I took the bend out of my fender without thinking about it , so now I have 'options' . Either use an angled spacer , like you , or re-bend the fender and use a straight cut spacer . I haven't painted my fenders yet and I might try the re-bend . If I can't get that to look decent , then ... ;)
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The space and flat spot on the lower fender gives the break rod room to move and not against the fender. I would put the bend back in if it was me but decide before you paint. :)
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Thanks for that , Reese .
I hadn't thought of that . The bike has been apart too long . :(
Looking closer at a few pics , I see the brake rod passes just below the spacer .
I'll re-bend the fender . ;)
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When I got my bike it had no spacer & the brake rod was rubbing against the edge of the fender. I made an angled spacer to fit the fender as I had also removed the bend in it when I welded up the crack that was in the area. I'd have to look again to remember how long the spacer is, but I made it to help center the fender in the frame.
BTW.....this would be another good topic to have discussed in correct "category" on the website. We've got a lot of good tips floating around in this thread which has become a "catch all"...... We've got to keep the new guys in mind.....someone who joins this week won't know about all the stuff we've talked about in this thread.
Just me 2 phenning's worth
Mike Sal
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Mike ,
Maybe we can simply send new members to this thread when / if they have a question . And , the thread is already in the correct category .
But , I know what you mean . It would be nice to have all the 'answers' categorized . Hopefully just a little better than the manual . ;)
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Actually, fender questions, as well as the ones about throttle mechanisms, should appear in the "frame tanks, seat, controls" section.
Mike Sal
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I did a little painting today after I re-bent the rear fender mount . I got as far as the fenders and light fixtures . Not a 14 coat nice , but my rattle can job turned out OK .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/87ab69x7t/HPIM1659_zpsa9603b48.jpg)
That was dry to touch , and this one , too :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/5bx7zet7t/HPIM1657_zpsf0c82dae.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/vms8bmgyx/HPIM1660_zpscf2fb39d.jpg)
I'm not sure , but I guess the blue will look alright :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/6w2jxt1m1/HPIM1662_zps5a475edc.jpg)
I'm in the process of stripping the tank to metal . Hopefully , that will fair as well as the fenders .
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Good looking progress. I'm jealous that you can work outside. We had snow again last night. Are you going to pin stripe the fenders?
Been watching the '49er's get their butts handed to them & now the power outage.....I've not been too impressed with the commercials so far either......
Mike Sal
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That is truly a nice color goes well with the frame. I see your front forks have nuts on top too. I wonder if this was on a lot of models cause my Brothers bike that's a later model doesn't have them. ???
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This may be another feature we can research......when did they use nuts on top of the spring towers & when did they not. My bike (an odd '56......it has a "low" mounted brake switch, but according the serial number, probably should have had a "high" mounted switch) has the nuts on the posts.
I'll start a poll to see what turns up.
Mike Sal
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That could be an interesting tid bit , Mike .
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And , Yes , I plan on pin stripping the fenders . ;)
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Rick ,
I'm curious as to how much you 'lowered' your float level .
The manual calls for 1 13/32 (+/- 1/64 ) . According to Mike Montgomery , Wayne recommends the same ( 1.406 which = 1 13/32 ) .
I bought this bike from Adam last summer (after Gary had died in March). I put gas and oil in it and it started. I put a carb kit in it, adjusted the float level (1.406" per Wayne), and resurfaced the face of the carb mounting flange, and it now runs much better...
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Rick ,
I'm curious as to how much you 'lowered' your float level .
The manual calls for 1 13/32 (+/- 1/64 ) . According to Mike Montgomery , Wayne recommends the same ( 1.406 which = 1 13/32 ) .
I bought this bike from Adam last summer (after Gary had died in March). I put gas and oil in it and it started. I put a carb kit in it, adjusted the float level (1.406" per Wayne), and resurfaced the face of the carb mounting flange, and it now runs much better...
I set mine at 1 15/32. I was having flooding issues, changed the needle and seat, still the same. I then read to seat the needle by pressing it into the seat with a pencil eraser. I did this, reset the float to 1 15/32, and it cured the problem.
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OK . Thanks for that . :)
It's always good to know alternatives in case the factory setting doesn't work out .
I think I'll start with the factory setting , because my carb body is an MT48 as opposed to an MT1 .
I'll like find out soon enough if that too rich or not . Hopefully , there's not too much difference in the carbs .
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Hmm , maybe I'll just clear coat it and run it .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/3ya6hujc9/HPIM1666_zps348da3d4.jpg)
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Looking good, but you got to check out ebay. Somebody has listed a front fork with fender not worth what he asking. But here's what drew me to look at it. Double pin stripping on the fender the first I've seen that looks to be stock. :)
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I saw that fender. Do you think that ornament is from a dodge, or a JC Whitney knock off?
That tank looks nice, but you'll love it even more with color on it. The guy who painted mine smoothed out the warpage on the top surface, even though I had told him it was no big deal.
Mike Sal
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Looks to be a knock off but with the age could be from just about anything. Did you notice the pin stripping also goes down the brackets! ::)
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I've seen several photos of early Simplex's with lots of pin striping on the chassis. Not sure how much was factory & how much was "extra cost".
Mike Sal
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The seller seems to be dreaming ...
As for my tank , yeah , it looks pretty nice all cleaned up , but , I'll paint it ( same as the fenders ) .
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Your bike is turning out real nice. Great Job!!
Ken
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Thanks , Ken . :)
I'm having fun with it . Hopefully I'll be able ride it again , before too long . That'll really put a grin on my face .
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I painted the tank today . Like the fenders , it's not 14 coat nice but we're gonna run it .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/65ef5romh/HPIM1670_zpsec22978a.jpg)
I also started on the exhaust 'system' today . Angles + angles and then into curved surfaces ... I could use a few hands . LOL
I screwed up a hole in the muffler , so I was forced to break out the JB Weld . :(
I intend to paint the system black anyway , but still , the idea ...
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Are you sure jb weld hold? I would cut a round peice with the right size hole and braze it on like a collar supporting a piece of pipe.
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I'm not sure if the JB will hold or not , Reese . I plan on building it up into a collar shape . I wouldn't think the heat will hurt it . Maybe the vibration will do it in . I don't know . It's definitely an experiment . I plan on giving the whole system plenty of support , so weight shouldn't be a problem .
If it proves to be a total flop , I guess I can just grind the JB out and try the brazing / collar . Practice makes perfect ??? :)
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This is not what I had in mind when I started building the exhaust . Due to some of the most unforgiving pipe ...
I have a manual pipe bender that I've used for years . The pipe I planned on bending into tail pipes would not bend . I even heated it to red hot . NO go . I did manage to crack the pipe where I had tried to make the first bend .
Being as I had the holes cut in the muffler section for the tail pipes and I wasn't going to be going to town in the near future , I settled on a pair of shorty pipes . They'll dump about at the back side of the motor .
I'm not real pleased , but , I'll run it until I can come up with another system .
So , here are a couple pics of what became of my exhaust building :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/qfbqkwprd/HPIM1674_zps5cc43a12.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/s5urme7ah/HPIM1671_zpsc6c93544.jpg)
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That looks good Pd and it sounds like that is a weird pipe that doesn't bend. Where is the rear mount to support it from shaking. The original had a hole in the tip of the pipe that bolted to an engine mount. I added a S piece of metal to hold it up.
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It would be interesting to know just what kind of steel that pipe was made of. Where did you get it?
Mike Sal
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It must of came from Kryton or maybe a part of Superman spacecraft.
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Thanks Reese . :)
For support , I intend on using a double yoke type affair . It will be similar to an ox yoke , only upside down .
(http://evanlaar1922.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/yoke1.jpg)
The pipe that wouldn't bend is actually a copper alloy most likely . It looks like copper , but it does not oxidize like copper .
I put my full body weight into trying to bend that pipe . Both with and without heat . It only slightly bent immediately before it cracked unevenly across . Brittle comes to mind , but very tough .
I picked it up at a metal yard about 7 years ago , in Grand Rapids , Michigan .
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Yesterday , I spent some time building a wiring harness , if we can call it that .
I ran an extra wire to front and rear to use as ground , so I wouldn't have to rely on the frame or leave any steel open to rust .
I used wiring that I salvaged from a jet ski . It happens that all the jet ski wiring is run through black plastic sleeving . There was enough room to pull the extra wire through the sleeve and so I was able to keep a cleaner look .
All connections are soldered , but for the eyelets which are soldered to their associated wires .
I still have to mount the lamps and connect them . I'd go out and work on that , but it's colder than an icicle out there and I smell fresh cinnamon rolls . Dang , my wife is drizzling orange glazing on them , right now ... :P ;D
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Alas, no man can resist orange glazed cinimon rolls....I've heard that was the true downfall of Sampson (the only reason Delilah cut his hair was he got some icing stuck in it).
Mike Sal
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The mind was willing , but the body was weak . Yup , when it comes to fresh orange glazed cinnamon rolls , I'm like a puppy that knows it's getting a treat . ;)
I never heard that about Sampson . I can see why it might be true . :)
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"....Samson was granted supernatural strength by God in order to combat his enemies and perform heroic feats such as wrestling a lion, slaying an entire army with only the jawbone of an ass, and destroying a pagan temple. Samson had two vulnerabilities, however: his attraction to untrustworthy women and his hair, without which he was powerless. These vulnerabilities ultimately proved fatal for him."
Personally, I think the hair thing was just a rumor.....it was really the cinamon rolls....and maybe beer......
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I'm not really sure how long beer has been around , but maybe , but not cinnamon rolls and beer together . Yuck .
I did a bit more painting today . It's a good thing I don't paint for a living . I'd never be able to charge anyone for the questionable jobs I produce .
If I worked at it for a year or two , I might get it right . I guess it'll do , as long as it looks good from your house . ;)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/srobw8rqh/HPIM1676_zpsf88bf84b.jpg)
I still have to do the fenders .
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Looking good Pete! We will all give it the close inspection at Portland! LOL
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Thanks , Rick .
They are not as pretty as they appear . :( But , I tend to be to much a perfectionist .
Like I said , they look great from 50 yards away . ;)
We may stay in the South this Summer . We haven't decided , yet .
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Try a shot of clear coat on then but they do look nice. Also if someone points anything out tell them they don't have to look. :P
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Thanks , Reese . :)
It's more that fact that "I" know what's not exactly right . ;)
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Well answer me this. Are you a master painter if its no then be proud you did. Shoot I had mine done at a shop and there's still goofs in it. My Brother painted his in It thirty thousand dollar paint booth with a master painter at his side and He's thinks he could of done better. Those little oops are its personality and I hope I do that good on my #2 bike. ;D
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Guess you're right , Reese .
And , by that count , my bike has an awful lot of personality . :D
I'm sure you can do at least as good and likely much better than I did . It is your stripper , after all . ;)
By the way , that little tool is the cat's meow . Quality all the way .
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Yeah, isn't it funny how we are our own worst critics? You make one little tiny mistake, you can't help but look at it every time you walk up to your bike or whatever else.
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Pd, I have had that little tool for a few years but she was a virgin when I sent her to you. So your her first.... :o
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I was gentle with her . And , I used plenty of lub ... I mean paint thinner . ;)
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Gentlemen , and miscreants , I have a roller . :D
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ib87twsq1/HPIM1680_zps12d17137.jpg)
And , reading all the 'complaints' here and recalling the pronounced lean the stock kick stand affords , I made another that props the bike a bit more upright . I bent the 'toe' of my new stand a little too much . I'll have to straighten that a touch . I used 3/4" galvanized conduit . I drove hardwood about 3" into the mount end of the tube and rounded it off . I have to do the same to the toe . The new stand is a few inches longer and it has a slight bend about half way to the toe . It accomplishes about the same rise as if a 2x4 were laid flat under the original stand . It still has to be painted , but I have to get some vinegar first .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ddun8sqqx/HPIM1681_zps2ba4161e.jpg)
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looks good Pd :)
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Thanks Reese . I'm getting there . ;)
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Pretty soon you will be building tool kits and riding off in the sun set ;D ;D
Ken
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Nice looking,it definitely gets ya more excited once ya have a roller.
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Lookin good. I wasn't sure about painting my spokes, but after seeing yours, I kind of like it.
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The one thing I did on mine was to put bumpers where the triple tree would hit the neck to keep from shipping the paint. I wanted rubber but could only find some plastic ones. They do the job but they stand out. :(
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Thanks guys . :)
Red ,
It's been about 7 years since she's been on wheels . There is definitely a feeling of accomplishment .
Ken ,
I like that tool kit idea . I have one on my 750 , but I only used it once , early on . Still , It's good to be able to resolve an issue 'on the spot' . Post a pic of yours , when you get it ready .
Matt ,
I was going to just clean the spokes and run them , but that just wasn't going to happen due to some discoloration and a touch of rust pitting ( not enough to weaken the spokes much , if at all ) . I then tried painting one wheel , hub to rim , all almond . I wasn't sure I cared for it at first . Now , I think it makes it look even older . ;)
Reese ,
You might take a look at the stick on bumpers for furniture and cabinets . They come in different colors and shapes . Any home improvement store should have them and they are pretty cheap , too . :)
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Fork Stops......Yes, I still need to figure out what is best for this. Right now I still have some painters tape stacked up on both side of the neck. I've got some black rubber about an 1/8" thick that I might cut out & glue on. I just wonder what diameter would look best.....something the size of a quarter, or ????
Mike Sal
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Well the plastic bumpers I have are smaller than a dime. Its not like its going to move up or down.
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Look on my frame I used furniture bumpers. They come in black and clear and have sticky back tape on one side.
Ken
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I also used small, round, stick on rubber pads.
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How much distance between the upper left frame tube and the rear wheel sheave should there be ?
I have a slip on type sheave .
It seems to be fairly straight and lined up with the transmission . There's only about 1/8 " clearance . I suppose that's enough , but ???
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My pulley runs very close also. I used some washers to offset the wheel a little to get some extra clearance to the fender braces.
Mike Sal
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I think I'll try the washer thing , Mike . Thanks .
I noticed when mounting the rear wheel that there was a good quarter inch or so clearance between the inner axle nut and the mount plate , before I tightened things . I had to look in the manual to be sure there wasn't suppose to be a spacer or such in there . It just seemed too much clearance .
Pete . :)
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Here's a couple pics of the 'new' finished kick stand .
You can see that it hangs a couple inches lower than a stock kick stand .
There's about 3 1/2 " clearance with me on the bike .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/7tmrbwh9l/HPIM1685_zps6ad1ed79.jpg)
I used a round head screw as the locator 'nub' . The stand works just like the stocker , but keeps the bike at a better resting angle . :)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/dgeivmueh/HPIM1683_zps0b2ffc9d.jpg)
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I'll share my method of removing Simplex spark plugs without removing the gas tank if a few of you long-timers will share your tried and true method .
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I'll share my method of removing Simplex spark plugs without removing the gas tank if a few of you long-timers will share your tried and true method .
Box end wrench. It is as simple as that.
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Rick ,
I just went out and tried a box end wrench . It works for the right side plug once the left side is out . I can't get the wrench far enough down on the left plug to even start getting any hold . I'm using NGK B4H plugs . Are you using more than a single washer ?
Anyway , I use a needle nose vise grip pliers . It reaches the hex portion of the plug with plenty of room to spare .
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Pete, I just tried the box end wrench on another cylinder that I have and it was a very tight fit, but still worked. I also have an offset box end wrench, but that one is forged much bigger and would not fit. An offset wrench like that could be ground down, and would probably work well.
The easiest thing to do would be to order one of Wayne's replica plug wrench that he lists on his price sheet.
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I thought about modifying an old chainsaw wrench/screwdriver . Cutting the tube and reattaching the screwdriver handle , but ...
It's easier to pic up the phone and write a check .
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I cut down a socket and welded on a handle with a few finger slots. It works great!!
Ken
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Ken ,
I recall your post a few days ago on those and the tool kit / pouch . I like ... :)
On another note , an exhaust note , to be exact , my bike actually starts and runs . (http://macweather.net/images/smilies/sun.png)
That's only while choked , so I figured there was a bit too much air coming in . I pulled the carb and found the wading that is suppose to plug the 'drain' tube in the intake being held from fully coming out by the screw that comes up from underneath the intake . It didn't take much to remove that wade . I plan on plugging that hole , but haven't decided on what I want to use .
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Congrats on getting it running. I still haven't put any gas in mine. Maybe in a month......:(
Mike Sal
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Thanks , Mike .
:-[ I really wanted to hear it run . It's only been 48 years and I don't even have the rear fender mounted , yet .
I guess my impatience is showing , again . ;)
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I'm not sure if the JB will hold or not , Reese . I plan on building it up into a collar shape . I wouldn't think the heat will hurt it . Maybe the vibration will do it in . I don't know . It's definitely an experiment . I plan on giving the whole system plenty of support , so weight shouldn't be a problem .
If it proves to be a total flop , I guess I can just grind the JB out and try the brazing / collar . Practice makes perfect ??? :)
A couple of good backfires and the JB Weld blew out . Surprisingly enough the sound of the exhaust did not change with the extra hole . I do think that the extra hole allowed too much free flow exhaust as the motor quit very soon after the blow out . I was able to see inside the muffler for a second or two immediately after the 'event' . Things were orange hot in there . I used regular flat black paint and it is still intact but for the blown out area . That's another surprise .
Backfires ... Obviously , I have to make some changes in the carb .
It also blew back through the carb a couple times .
It's been a while since I've played with two stroke carbs . I'm thinking that my problem is likely too lean a mixture . But , if I richen the idle mix , the motor dies . I'll pull the carb and go through it .
Maybe time for an extra hole in the meter tube ???
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I pulled the carb to check everything . I reset the float level to 1 15/32" and drilled another set of holes in the meter tube to match OEM . There was a very small amount of 'dust' in the float bowl , so I checked the sediment bowl . Sure enough , there was some crud in there , too . As I was cleaning the sediment bowl , it slipped to the cement . No saving a thousand shards ... :(
Hopefully , I can find a replacement .
It really pissed me off . I had been careful with that when ever I handled it ever since I bought the bike , 48 years ago . Gone in a second .
Where might be the best source for a good replacement bowl ? I've found complete assemblies , but no bowls that fit .
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PD. your local lawnmower shop would have a replacement or call Wayne he has them too.
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PD I feel your pain. Last summer some birds got into the shop & I had the bright idea of taking them out with a bb gun. I had to be carefull where I shot because I've got so much stuff in there I didn't want a miss to damage something. Needless to say that I did have several ricochets. A few weeks later I happen to walk in front of the Model T (a '26 Touring) & thought something looked odd on one of the headlights.....you guessed it. a nice big bb hole in that poor lens that had survived 86 years only to fall prey to a big goof like me. :(
Mike Sal
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Thanks for the sources , Reese . :)
And , Mike , I suppose there is some consolation in knowing I'm not alone . ;)
That sunken feeling ain't no fun at all .
I'll post what I find for a replacement .
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I found a replacement bowl at an on line small engine supply store . It should be here by Wednesday , I hope .
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The bowl is just a CH smaller than the old stock unit. It WILL work though.
I just dropped my original glass bowl and cracked it. I pulled that new style off the shelf at work and test fitted.
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I can live with a CH smaller . I currently have the inner cap from a rattle can cap installed , so I can at least run the motor .
The tape is to help keep the cap centered and add a bit of rigidity .
Sorry for the fuzzy pic , but you get the idea .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/fc5wkj8mh/HPIM1709_zps8ae0398c.jpg)
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So, how did it run?
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Some of you might notice that the tank rail bolt is situated a bit different than OEM design .
I didn't like the way that the end of the bolt chewed into the aluminum rail , so I used a little shorter bolt and ground the head to fit into the rail recess . That keeps the bolt from turning and spreads its applied pressure . The nut is simply snugged to the support rail . The bolt is just long enough to extent into the hole in the support rail .
Rick ,
It runs much better after I made the adjustments of 'lowering' the float in the bowl and drilling a fourth set of holes in the metering tube . It's still not exactly right , but I should be able to get it fine tuned with the idle and high speed screws . Hopefully , anyway .
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Question :
How much clearance should there be between the transmission shoes and the drum ?
I have very close to .025" . The bike wants to 'take off' at high idle , while it's warming up . It just seems that the transmission should engage a bit later , at a higher RPM .
It's been too long and I don't recall how it performed when I was 14 , other than it zipped around the block pretty quickly .
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2 things will effect the engagement; rpm and friction shoe spring strength. As I see it, how close the shoes are to the drum at rest is mostly irrelevant. Can you lower the idle speed?
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"2 things will effect the engagement; rpm and friction shoe spring strength."
Agreed .
"As I see it, how close the shoes are to the drum at rest is mostly irrelevant. "
So , you're saying that spring strength is irrelevant ? Weak springs will enable engagement at a lower RPM . If there were more distance between drum and shoes the engagement would happen at a higher RPM , all things being equal .
I have the original springs installed .
Warm idle speed seems fine , at the moment . It's when cold and still on partial choke that the idle is a bit higher and the transmission wants to engage . I suppose it's possible that after I get the carb fine tuned that it might 'settle down' a bit .
And , I'm sure that after the shoes wear a bit , it may not be as much of an issue .
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"2 things will effect the engagement; rpm and friction shoe spring strength."
Agreed .
"As I see it, how close the shoes are to the drum at rest is mostly irrelevant. "
So , you're saying that spring strength is irrelevant ? Weak springs will enable engagement at a lower RPM . If there were more distance between drum and shoes the engagement would happen at a higher RPM , all things being equal .
I have the original springs installed .
Warm idle speed seems fine , at the moment . It's when cold and still on partial choke that the idle is a bit higher and the transmission wants to engage . I suppose it's possible that after I get the carb fine tuned that it might 'settle down' a bit .
And , I'm sure that after the shoes wear a bit , it may not be as much of an issue .
No, weaker springs will allow earlier engagement. I just don't think the static measurement from the drum means anything. Those original springs might have lost there springiness over the last 40 years. Is "springiness" even a word. LOL
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"Is "springiness" even a word. LOL"
It is if I know what you mean when using it . ;)
Oh and , " weaker springs will allow earlier engagement." = "Weak springs will enable engagement at a lower RPM ."
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Pete, we are on the same page! See you in Portland!
That's a little prod.
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8)
I'd really like to make Portland , but I'll have to see how things work out . No prod needed . :)
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Pd, did you put new shoes or liners in the clutch? It may take awhile to glaze over a little. I just installed some on mine and it tries to turn the motor over sometimes. Give them time to set in. 8)
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Reese ,
I do have new linings on those shoes . I guess I'll just have to do a few burn outs . ;D
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Reese ,
I do have new linings on those shoes . I guess I'll just have to do a few burn outs . ;D
Burnouts, now you are talking my language!
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The talk about transmission shoes brought to mind the fact that my brake adjustment was near totally used .
I had to remove the rear wheel anyway , so I pulled the brake panel for inspection . I found that my brake shoe rocker ends ( as opposed to the pivot ends ) were just aluminum . They had no hard surface to protect against wear , like most more modern shoes have . The brake actuator , where the rocker ends rest while mounted on the panel , had small ridges close to the tips ( likely left from casting ). Those ridges were cutting into the flat surface of the rocker ends of the shoes .
I filed the ridges smooth and made protection 'clips' out of that hard , unforgiving copper pipe that I couldn't bend for my exhaust pipes . That copper is about 3/32" thick , so I ended up with almost an inch more of adjustment on the brake rod .
Hopefully , the copper will save the shoes from too much more abuse .
I can't believe I didn't take any pics while I had the panel and shoes off . :(
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For comparison sake , here are my brake shoes without the protective 'clip' on the rocker surfaces :
These were originally mounted in the transmission , so , they show no friction wear . This pic was taken before the shoes were mounted on the brake panel .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ilkbqzwq1/HPIM1534.jpg)
And here's a set of brake shoes , from a different application , that have the 'clips' on them from the manufacturer :
(https://5.imimg.com/data5/DH/VV/JH/SELLER-94411169/two-wheeler-horn.jpg)
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Interesting Pete. Those other shoes, do they fit our bikes, and where do you buy them?
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I wonder what the weight difference is between those shoes & the originals? That will have an influence on tranny engagement.
Mike Sal
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Reese ,
The grooved pair of shoes will not work on our bikes .
Mike ,
I can't imagine that any shoe that would fit our applications would be much different , weight wise . But if they were , I'd agree that the weight might effect the transmission engagement point .
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Reese ,
The grooved pair of shoes will not work on our bikes . Look at the pivot ends of the shoes . They are a rounded outward pivot as opposed to our cupped pivot .
Mike ,
I can't imagine that any shoe that would fit our applications would be much different , weight wise . But if they were , I'd agree that the weight might effect the transmission engagement point .
Pete, I would think we could adapt that bottom pivot no problem. First, belt sand flat and then a little work with a die grinder equipped with a sanding roll.
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Yup . A little careful measuring and the right tools ...
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I rec'd my new sediment bowl . It's a decent fit and very acceptable replacement , in my opinion . It is just a bit shorter than the original , but the width is very close , maybe , as Matt said , a tad ( CH , to be exact ;) ) narrower , but not by much .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/emwaznmuh/HPIM1712_zps889da69a.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ekcfctj6x/HPIM1710_zps1d4c8658.jpg)
I installed it , alone with a new cork gasket . No leaks . :)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/z5r74q0rt/HPIM1719_zps533f697f.jpg)
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Pete, are those your plug wires tie wrapped together next to the cylinder?
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Good eye Rick .
Yes , plug and lighting wires . All are new . I know that's not the OEM wire routing configuration , but it's much less hectic . I also ran an extra wire for ground to front and rear from the magneto plate . The lighting wires have an extra layer of protection as they are routed through a plastic jet ski harness 'tube' . And the plug wires should be OK . I figured as tight as things are through the magneto plate and mount , running them together shouldn't be a problem . Not to mention they fire at the same time . There is about an inch clearance between the wires and the cylinder .
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If you run them through the upper motor mount, they hold them in a nice position.
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I like that 'nostalgic' look of the separated and supported wires . I'll probably end up rerouting , but I wanted to get the bike running reliably ( if that's possible ;) ) . Just my impatience showing brightly , again . :)
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I rode the Simplex around the yard a couple of times today . It doesn't seem to want to rev up ( power up ) enough to really take off . Almost like it's slightly out of time . Completely opening the throttle seems to make no difference . It only revs to a point and that's it .
Maybe I have to increase the exhaust back pressure ???
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Did you adjust the carb? If not, screw both screws in all the way, then back out 1 turn each. It sounds like you may be way too rich.
If you set the points to .020, the timing should be good, as there is no adjustment.
The stock simplex muffler doesn't have any baffling, so I don't think back pressure is the problem.
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If you suspect any flooding or excessive rich running, you might pull the compression plate to see if there's a puddle in the crankcase that needs to come out.
Mike Sal
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Rick ,
1 Turn out each is where I started . I think they are currently something less . I'll have to check to be sure . I made a lot of adjustments to both needles .
The points are set at .020" . I thought it a bit strange when I put the motor together and confirmed that the timing is not adjustable .
That's interesting that the OEM mufflers have no baffling .
Mike ,
I did pull the plates when I had the float set at 1 13/64" . I have not removed them since . The motor does blow back through the carb every once in a while . It wouldn't hurt to pull them again .
I've always been able to get a motor running nicely , but this one is getting my curiosity up .
Here's a sneak peek at my 'not totally finished' ( not that it ever will be ) Simplex :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/53mm66zc9/HPIM1734_zps6c07b436.jpg)
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Very Nice!!!
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Looking good Pd. That's a very true statement there "not that they ever are". I have several things I'm tweeking on mine right now. :D
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Thanks , guys . :)
Seems every machine needs 'attention' , even when they don't get used very much . I guess it's our nature to want to make things as good as we can .
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Guess what put a big ole smile on my face today ... :D
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ty6409k6h/HPIM1736_zps081e4c36.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ob9r2shnt/HPIM1737_zps4fe909b2.jpg)
My wife isn't use to taking 'action' shots ,but you get the idea . ;)
I rode my bike a little over a mile . It did good for not running for 48 years . :)
Sorry to say that smile lasted until after I stopped to have a cup of coffee with my wife . When I tried to restart the Simplex . :( No go . I'm not sure why , just yet .
I did make a couple changes prior to my ride : I raised the float level in the bowl to 1.44" from 1.47" and soldered one of the two holes I drilled in the metering tube ( that leaves a total of 7 holes in the side of the tube ) .
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Looking good Pete! If you let the bike cool off, does it restart? If so, try leaning it out a hair more.
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Race ya!!!
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Race ya!!!
I'm in! We can drag it out on the road next to the fairgrounds!
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I don't know . Those rockers seem like they'd have a better hole shot . And , your paint is a lot smoother than mine ...
But , I'm not one to back down from what might be a fairly even race , so , if I can make Portland , yer on ( I should have it running decent by then ) .
Sounds good , Rick . Winner buys ... Losers will spend all their extra cash on performance improvements . :D
Concerning my bikes current running condition , I plan on pulling the plugs for a check this afternoon .
I did a compression test yesterday . I had a reading of 80 pounds , 3 times . Maybe that's too much . I recall someone saying they should be about 60 - 70 pounds .
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Never too much compression!
Did it restart after cooling down?
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"Never too much compression!"
I know that's so on the 4 strokes and figured as much on 2 strokes , but I wasn't sure exactly how these motors were designed .
I haven't tried to restart , yet . I did pull the plugs and it looks like you were right about being a bit rich .
(https://s26.postimg.org/7q24n4qjt/HPIM1740_zpsa1ed3e3a.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.org/xa4etkbxl/HPIM1742_zpsa91b6a6b.jpg)
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Do you have a dual output coil? If so, when it doesn't start, pull one plug wire and ground it, then try starting it.
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It's a single output coil . It must be fairly strong , as both plugs fire . I did try running with a single plug connected . No difference .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/v9r6ul2zt/HPIM1549.jpg)
And , speaking of coils , I'm not sure my lighting coils are putting out anything of use .
I might try rewinding them . Or maybe I'll fit some coils that are a bit more 'robust' .
What does Wayne get for his replacement coils ? That might be an easier way .
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Well if your luck runs like mine you will tinker with several items and not be sire what actually fixes it. Good luck and it will work out soon. 8)
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Thanks , Reese . :)
That sounds about right . Although , I've been trying to keep my problem solving to one or two 'attempts' at a time , lately . It seems to be working , so ...
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It's a single output coil . It must be fairly strong , as both plugs fire . I did try running with a single plug connected . No difference .
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/pdcomm/Simplex/HPIM1549.jpg)
And , speaking of coils , I'm not sure my lighting coils are putting out anything of use .
I might try rewinding them . Or maybe I'll fit some coils that are a bit more 'robust' .
What does Wayne get for his replacement coils ? That might be an easier way .
Pete, Wayne doesn't have the Phelon coil listed in his parts sheet, so you will have to call him.
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Thanks , Rick .
And so , my (re)search begins ...
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Thanks , Rick .
And so , my (re)search begins ...
Pete, I do seem to recall Wayne telling me Phelon parts are available. Just because something is not on his price list, doesn't mean he doesn't have it,
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True , Rick .
Maybe I shouldn't be too quick to dismiss that option . Thanks . :)
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I couldn't seem to get the MT48 carb dialed in . It would allow a couple of putts each kick , but would not start .
I put the MT9 carb together and installed it .
With the MT9 , the motor starts , runs and revs when cold and free wheeling . When it gets hot , it dies .
I'm going to switch ignition coils next . Hopefully , like the adage says : 90% of carb problems are electrical .
Although , there is spark cold and hot . I'm just not sure it's a strong enough spark .
And then there's the no power thing . It bogs and wants to die when any load is applied .
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After playing with carb adjustments , I had the bike running long enough to get another mile ride in before it quit . About the same as last time . I have not switched coils , yet .
I've tried pulling one wire and it seemingly made no difference .
Here's a pic of the stator plate before I cleaned it up :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/v9r6ul2zt/HPIM1549.jpg)
The replacement coil ( tan colored ) was used in a marine application ( I have a second coil ) . It was meant to fire a single plug , but it does fire both plugs . That might be asking too much from the coil . The replacement coil is a bit bigger than the original dual plug coil . I'll try running it with a single plug for a longer time and see if that makes a difference . I have narrowed the plug gaps a few thousandths to maybe help compensate . The plugs are non resistor type and the fired color of both are identical .
Are the original type dual plug coils still available ?
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Are the original type dual plug coils still available ?
Don't know the answer to that question, but I think you should only have one plug connected.
By any chance, did you happen to check the ring gap before assembling the motor?
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I tired the single plug route . That doesn't seem to make much , if any , difference .
The ring gap measured a snug .014" . I took another compression reading . Cold and hot . Both were 80 pounds or very close .
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I tired the single plug route . That doesn't seem to make much , if any , difference .
The ring gap measured a snug .014" . I took another compression reading . Cold and hot . Both were 80 pounds or very close .
When it will not restart, pull the side cover and see if gas pours out.
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I did that this afternoon . Gas , too much , poured out . I pulled the carb and set the float deeper in the bowl .
I had the adjustment screws at a half turn out on the main ( bottom ) and close to the same for the idle screw .
I left them alone after the float adjustment .
The bike ran for a short time and quit , again . :(
I'll get it running , sometime before I die , Hopefully .
And , the meter tube has only 6 holes . I'd tried 8 , but that was too much . I soldered two of them closed .
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Well Pd keep trying you will get tune in soon. What's your fuel mix ratio or maybe the oil type or fuel strength. Just thinking outside the box. ???
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Fuel > oil is 40 > 1 . I've been thinking about 50 > 1 . But , it should run OK on 40 > 1 . And , it does , when it's cold .
I have to switch ignition coils and see if that changes anything . I tested both coils and they Ohm out the same , but that wouldn't necessarily show a break / weakness when hot .
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Condenser. ???
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Reese ,
Thank You very much for that reminder . :)
I hadn't even considered the possibility of the condenser being faulty . I guess it's been too many years since I've worked on point and coil magnetos .
This brings the question : what size condenser ?
I'm sure the condenser has to be matched to the coil . So , I'll have to do a bit of research to find the correct one used with the coil I'm using .
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That is going to be a Wayne type question. ???
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Through a bit of research , it seems that Phelon used an FG216(B) condenser in a number of their magnetos . Those were with mostly single plug coils . I found a reference that included Simplex motorbikes and the two plug coil that used the FG216 , but I didn't bookmark it and I can't seem to find it again . :( I see , in the Manuals Only / Magnetos section that the '57 and later Phelon magnetos used a Repco FG-2448 condenser . I can not find any reference to any ratings ( or anything else ) on that condenser .
Anyway , the condensers that I removed from the marine stator plate that the coil I'm using came from are stamped FG216B . The FG216 and FG216B both seem to be rated at .15µ - .19µ ( microfarad ) . So , any condenser that has a similar mount with a long enough pig tail and is rated at .15µ - .19µ , or very close to that , will work nicely for the Phelon magnetos in our bikes without adverse effects .
Most of the same type magnetos used a condenser that was / is rated at .14µ - .22µ .That alone would seem to prove the rest of my research is correct .
If anyone has information that would support or conflict the above , Please , let us know . Thanks .
Pete . :)
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This afternoon I ran the bike until it quit . It did restart and ran for a very short while , before quitting and not wanting to restart . I immediately pushed the bike into the shop to check things under the flywheel while the motor was hot . I pulled the side and compression plate in order to pull the flywheel . Another stream of fuel spotted the shop floor . :(
I have the float level set at 1.5" . I'm not sure , but that should keep the fuel level at or below the bottom of the carb throat . Maybe I have to bring the main needle in some more , but it seems not want to run then .
My float needle has a metal tip . I'm going to see if I can find a needle with a rubber tip . At this point , I don't know if that will make any difference .
In the magneto , the coils where not at all hot or even warm . More toward the stone cold side . The points looked clean , without any transfer deposits on either point . That means that the condenser I have in there has the correct µ rating . Whether the condenser functions after it works for a while is the question . From my past experiences , condensers are either good or not . Not : good , then not good , then good again . But , I suppose anything is possible .
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Personally, I think it's disgusting that you can even tinker with the bike.....we got 6 inches of snow yesterday (they had a foot to the north & west of us).......
Were you able to check for spark when the bike quit? It's not uncommon for a condensor to fail when it warms up, then go good again when it cools down. When it died, was it sudden (like turning off the key), or did it loose power or burble like it was flooding out?
Mike Sal
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"Personally, I think it's disgusting that you can even tinker with the bike.....we got 6 inches of snow yesterday (they had a foot to the north & west of us)....... "
You'll be able to do the same thing , when you decide to retire in a warmer climate . :D
How it quit ... I'd say it was closer to sudden , as it blew back through the carb on it's last 'breath' . It's happened like that almost every time .
I did not check for 'post' spark today . I have a couple of times prior and always had spark then .
It's a bit puzzling why I get a fuel spot on the floor the last few times I've removed the side plates . I checked the float needle for any defects and found none and the seat also looked good .
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Pete, a couple of things to check. First, make sure the cylinder is snug to the case. I have experienced the bolts loosening slightly and causing a leak. Second, pull the float and check for a crack. Before putting the float back in, set the inlet needle by pushing it in firmly with a pencil eraser. I read this somewhere, and it cured my leaking needle. I had changed my needle and seat twice, and this worked! Set the float to 1 15/32" This lowers the fuel in the bowl slightly and I have seen no adverse effect.
Read this article written by Gary Wollard, and see if you think this applies to your situation.
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Rick ,
The jug is tight to the case . I checked that yesterday .
I'm not really satisfied that the side covers are staying tight enough . When I remove the screws , they are only finger tight . I torque them as tight as possible without slipping the screwdriver out of the slots at installation .
I already have the float set at 1 16/32" . I'll have to try the pencil eraser .
I have not seen any fuel moisture on the fender , lately . I did at first when I wasn't able to get the motor to run . It would fire occasionally and blow back through the carb . That was likely due to the settings being way too rich .
It would be nice to know the sleeving procedure that Gary used for the crank and port .
Is that article from a publication that Gary produced ?
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It would be nice to know the sleeving procedure that Gary used for the crank and port .
Is that article from a publication that Gary produced ?
That was from a magazine that Gary published for a few issues. He created "The New Servi-Cycling Magazine" in the 1990's and published at least 5 issues that I know of. It was modeled after Simplex's own "Servi-Cycling" magazine from the 1940's.
KartJockey sleeved his 48, maybe he can chime in.
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my engine has the separate rotary valve. Some where early on in its life the air breather hose broke and it ingested enough Dust off of the Mississippi backroads to grind therotary valve down and the bore in the block outward. I had to sleeve the block down and the valve up. Since it was the original block I was pretty nervous until it was done. I had to 'rough' in the bore of the block sleeve plus it had clip grooves and so forth to deal with. Once installed ifinished honed it to size with a rigid Sunen cylinder hone. Critical dimensions to be able to hold press fit of the tapered roller bearings races. The valve was a bit easier but still a delicate little procedure when you don't have a spare laying in front of you. So I have a measured running clearance of .002" per side on the valve(.004" difference in the diameters). Take a look at the exploded view in the 1948 manual to see what I was up against. Seems to me an M block could experience the same problem. I'd have to lokk at one to see what to do.
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That early valve is a lot different than the M models .
What are the rotary valve clearance limits for the M model ?
I don't recall seeing anything pertaining to that in the manuals .
On another note : I reinstalled the original condenser that was in the bike when I bought it . That's a 48 year old condenser and likely OEM , which would make it 55 + years old . Amazingly , the bike now has a much more robust spark , at least while cold . I have not gotten it hot with the old condenser , yet .
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I took the Simplex for a ride with the old condenser . It ran about the same and crapped out at about the same distance as before . I probably should have switched coils while I had it apart , but the only way to know for sure what is wrong is to 'test' one thing at a time . So , tomorrow , it'll come apart , again .
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Hi Folks, I happen to know that Larry Brown (on this list) has experience with resleeving for the rotary valve. I think that he can also do it for you for a reasonable price. Good luck, Mike
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Thanks for that , Mike . :)
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I hope you have something to put it up on to work on it. I hate having to tinker with mine while she sits on the ground. I had to build a low table so I can sit in a chair. :)
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I wish I had a table for it , too , Reese . Cold cement is no good for my knees . I do use a chair once in a while , but I find it gets done quicker if I just make work of it . If it were my own shop ...
Today , I installed my other ignition coil . The bike ran about the same , with maybe a bit more missing , for about the same distance . I'll have to run it more to be sure about the missing .
I also loosened the side plates and wonders of wonders out came more fuel .
I have the main fuel screw set at just over half a turn out and the idle screw at about one turn out . The manual recommends starting at one turn out on both screws .
The float is set 3/32" deeper in the bowl than the manual states .
The meter tube has two less holes than the OEM eight holes . I have a meter tube with only four holes that I'll try .
I running out of things to try .
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Ok I've stepped out side of my box again so here we go. Are you using a factory gasket on the compression plate if so try making one out of thicker stock. Maybe weak vacuum to pull fuel mixture into the piston. Therefore it stays in the crank and finely floods the spark out. Well that's all I can fine out here right now but I will keep looking maybe there something around back of my box I will check there soon. Hope you hit the cause soon I know how it drains the will but there is a fix out there somewhere. :-\
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Reese ,
I'm using a gasket I cut from bulk rubberized gasket material . It's ( was ) close to .020" thick . I've been thinking of cutting one out of cork . That's a bit thicker and would likely fill any deformation .
It's worth a shot .
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Pete, I think your problem is carb related. I am just guessing, but I'd bet someone overtightened the metering screws at one point in time and messed up the seats. I would buy one of those reproduction carbs from Carpenter and try that.
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Rick ,
I have to agreed that the limited running issue is carb related . The fuel in the crankcase was not known at the beginning and the quitting after getting hot is characteristic of a bad coil . Through all this , I think I've singled out the best components that I currently have .
And , I think you may be right about the seats being messed up .
I haven't tried the four hole meter tube yet , which I think will , at least , lessen the amount of fuel in the crankcase . There was less after I soldered the holes that I drilled in the tube . So ...
Then there's always the Carpenter carb .
I've thought about a better seal at the rotary valve port in the crank . I think a better seal there would help . Something I'll have to work on . Is the crank diameter at the port the same as the inside diameter of the main bearing ? It seemed pretty close , if I remember right .
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I did cut and install a cork gasket for the side covers .
I'm not sure , but the last side cover screw felt like it was letting loose . Not sure if the threads pulled or the screw broke . I'll find out tomorrow .
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Does anyone know of a decent thread repair for 8 - 32 screws ?
I suppose a heli coil might do .
I'm not sure I want to up the screw size to 10 - 24 .
These screws are to hold the compression and side plates to the crankcase .
I was afraid this might happen with all the on / off activity of my side plates . :(
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I've never seen repair kits that small. Have you looked at metric sizes? You may get to go bigger without going to big. 8)
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I'm still researching , Reese .
I might have to go a size bigger . Either USS or Metric . I'm not sure how deep the hole is . It's one of the two top most holes just under the jug . If there's enough metal there , I might be able to just go a bit deeper and use the same thread size but longer screw .
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I crashed my Simplex this afternoon . (http://www.jeepforum.com/gallery/data/4/eyebulge.gif)
Hit some gravel . The front wheel was of no use . I was down and skidding in a nanosecond .
I'm glad the crash bars are as stout as they are . The crash bar and the license plate holder were the only things scratched up . Other than the requisite road rash and dented pride and side of the rider . The bike even kept running while on it's side and on top of me . Maybe me being a human cushion helped minimize the damage to the bike . I'm sure I'll feel worse , tomorrow . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/frown.gif)
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I am glad youe ok and nothing got damaged too bad, and the bike faired ok also. I came close to a wipe out on my second ride and talk about gravel I live on a rocked county road. Try travling 30mph on nothing but gravel now that's what you call fun. At least it was running. ;D
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Maybe this bike was originally a circus bike & will only run well when it's sideways, like those guys who ride the motorcycles in circles inside those metal spheres! All you need now is one of those evil knievel suits!!!
Mike Sal
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I think I'm probably worse off than the bike .
10 minutes and a little paint and the bike will be good to go .
As for me , the pain of a possible bruised rib or two and a couple weeks for the rash to heal . Hopefully that's all it takes .
If I'd worn one of those suits I'd likely be in much better shape . :D
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How you feeling today Pete? I hope you heal up quickly!
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Surprisingly , I feel much better than I'd anticipated . I'm a bit sore in the ribs and if i bump the rash just right ...
I should be back to outrunning the Simplex =in no time at all . ;)
Thanks for asking .
Pete . :)
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I thought it was an April fools joke. :o
Glad to hear you are ok.
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I wish it was Matt .
And , I guess it really was , on me . :(
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Glad you are OK , Do they make goviners for Simplexs need one for yours , you supose to slow down before you get into the turns. Ride safe to ride another day! Bill Marcum 8)
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Thanks Bill . :)
If I'd been going much slower , I'd have been walking the bike or falling over for lack of inertia . Maybe that was my problem . ;)
I only slide about 10 - 12 feet . So , I couldn't have been going very fast , but I don't have a speedometer for verification .
And , I was going fairly straight , or so I thought .
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Dang , I left my bike out for an hour or so and now it has a pretty fair layer of yellowish pollen all over it . :(
I need a bike bubble ... :D
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Almost two years in storage did little good to my bike :(
Too much moisture was the main culprit . I have it half apart trying to bring it back , again .
I can pinpoint every nut or bolt that I did not treat ( rusted ) . The brake and clutch bells have surface rust .
I finally threw the towel in on the old carbs I have . Just today , I received a brand spankin new Chinese Carpenter carb . It'll be a day or two before I can see if that makes any difference .
Pete . :)
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Hope to see you in Portland pd, make sure you stop by the kettle korn stand and say hi. We are also doing the group photo on Sunday at 3 pm. I have been doing some tinkering on mine here lately also, but it looks like it will be in running order by Portland.
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I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed , except when working on the bike . ;)
I tell myself that it's not as bad as it looks .
Pete . :)
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I rode it a couple of miles yesterday . :D
What caused that ?
Well , I ordered a Cushman ignition coil from Carpenter , in the morning . An hour later I tore my OEM coil apart to see what was what and how it was constructed .
FYI : I had destroyed that coil about 10 years ago with cleaning chemicals and could never get a spark out of it again .
Anyway , after removing 97% of the exterior protective coating , what ever that was , I noticed a very fine wire . My hair is likely thicker . That wire wasn't attached to anything . It had to go somewhere and I figured it had to connect to ground as the other end of the coil connected to the high tension 'ring' ( normally exposed outside the exterior insulation ) .
I dug my multimeter out and set it to 20K ? . One lead to the ring and one to the wire . I got a reading of 14.11K? .
That was too good . I pulled the flywheel and then the marine coil I had mounted . Then I replaced the marine coil with the stripped OEM coil , making sure the loose wire was well grounded . Installed the flywheel ; kicked the motor over and wonders of wonders , it started and ran for a minute . After a bit of tweaking the carb adjustments , the bike wanted to take off . I had to back the idle down and then it kind of purred . Purred good enough I dared take it for a short ride as a test . A bit more tweaking and I took it for a longer test ride . It even climbed a fair hill , albeit slowly .
I'm wondering what the Carpenter coil Ohms out at . The marine coils I have measure only about 4K? .
Ernie told me , this past weekend , that he had a coil that measured about 6K? and it did about what my bike was doing . He then tried a coil that measure about 9K? , which had the bike running much better .
I drew from that^ talk that any coil 9K? or above should be fine .
The OEM coil measuring 14K? is not surprising as it needed enough 'push' to fire 2 plugs .
Ad so , I think I'm headed in the right direction to get my '57 on the road , running reliably , under it's own power .
Pete . :)
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Awesome Pete! Ernie and Bob are fountains of information, I always pay attention when they are speaking. As a matter of fact, Ernie showed me a needle bearing that he uses in place of the ball bearing on the connecting rod. Both Bob and Ernie claim that the ball bearing will fail, it is just a matter of time and how much damage is done to the rest of the motor. I ordered one and will put it in my blue bike, as I want to inspect the inside of the motor after I locked it up doing high speed passes at Portland. I pulled the side cover and didn't see anything wrong, the bike runs and sounds fine.
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The motor locked up ?
Do you have the bearing # ?
Pete . :)
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The motor locked up ?
Do you have the bearing # ?
Pete . :)
Yeah, at the end of a top speed run, I braked hard, and closed the throttle immediately, to speak with James. That is a no no on a 2 stroke, as no more lube reaches the piston, and overheats it. After the motor cooled for 15 minutes, it was free, and fired no problem.
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I'd have a look at the piston dome and skirts and pay attention to the rings and landings .
Not a cheap bearing . But then , motor destruction usually isn't too cheap either .
Pete . :)
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I'd have a look at the piston dome and skirts and pay attention to the rings and landings .
Not a cheap bearing . But then , motor destruction usually isn't too cheap either .
Pete . :)
That is why I am going to tear it down. I was surprised how expensive that bearing is, but, if it saves a motor, it is cheap insurance.
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I rode it a couple of miles yesterday . :D
What caused that ?
Well , I ordered a Cushman ignition coil from Carpenter , in the morning . An hour later I tore my OEM coil apart to see what was what and how it was constructed .
FYI : I had destroyed that coil about 10 years ago with cleaning chemicals and could never get a spark out of it again .
Anyway , after removing 97% of the exterior protective coating , what ever that was , I noticed a very fine wire . My hair is likely thicker . That wire wasn't attached to anything . It had to go somewhere and I figured it had to connect to ground as the other end of the coil connected to the high tension 'ring' ( normally exposed outside the exterior insulation ) .
I dug my multimeter out and set it to 20K ? . One lead to the ring and one to the wire . I got a reading of 14.11K? .
That was too good . I pulled the flywheel and then the marine coil I had mounted . Then I replaced the marine coil with the stripped OEM coil , making sure the loose wire was well grounded . Installed the flywheel ; kicked the motor over and wonders of wonders , it started and ran for a minute . After a bit of tweaking the carb adjustments , the bike wanted to take off . I had to back the idle down and then it kind of purred . Purred good enough I dared take it for a short ride as a test . A bit more tweaking and I took it for a longer test ride . It even climbed a fair hill , albeit slowly .
I'm wondering what the Carpenter coil Ohms out at . The marine coils I have measure only about 4K? .
Ernie told me , this past weekend , that he had a coil that measured about 6K? and it did about what my bike was doing . He then tried a coil that measure about 9K? , which had the bike running much better .
I drew from that^ talk that any coil 9K? or above should be fine .
The OEM coil measuring 14K? is not surprising as it needed enough 'push' to fire 2 plugs .
Ad so , I think I'm headed in the right direction to get my '57 on the road , running reliably , under it's own power .
Pete . :)
I just rec'd my Cushman ignition coil from Carpenter and after bitching about Chinese crap and reading the enclosed note about not bending the black wire at it's base or risk cracking it off , I measured the coils resistance .
Amazingly , it measured 17.7K ? . That's a lot better than I'd expected . Hopefully the black wire won't crack off due to motor vibration .
I'm still wondering if these coils come through measuring close to the same or if I just got lucky .
Maybe a few of you fellows could do a quick measure of the secondary coil output , for the record .
Measuring that is a simple procedure : Turn your multimeter on and set it to 20K ? . Pull the plug wire free of the plug . Insert one multimeter lead so it contacts the metal clip inside the plug cap , then ground the other lead to the motor block .
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So far , the Cushman coil has produced as much as maybe 20 seconds of run time . Disappointing .
Or , is that what the rest of you have experienced ? Maybe I'm doing something wrong ? It would be the very first time in my life . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/laugh2.gif)
Pete . :)
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So far , the Cushman coil has produced as much as maybe 20 seconds of run time . Disappointing .
Or , is that what the rest of you have experienced ? Maybe I'm doing something wrong ? It would be the very first time in my life . (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) (http://www.jeepforum.com/ubb/laugh2.gif)
Pete . :)
I run a cushman coil in both of my wico bikes. I think you need to tear down that motor and find out what is wrong. What is the compression? What is the ring gap? Have you measured rotator valve clearance? With the new carburetor and coil, there must be something else going on.
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I've been wondering the same thing , Rick .
The last compression reading was at about 80 pounds and when I installed the new rings there was a fairly snug .014" gap . And , I set them at about 120° . I don't know what the rotary valve clearance is . That would have more to do with vacuum , I'd think .
The bike ran better with the OEM coil in place .
Pete . :)
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I would step back and check the fuel system just for grins. Check to see if there is flow from the tank and the gas is good. Is there fuel build up in the crankcase is the crankcase sealed good? Have you check the carburetor?
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I've been wondering the same thing , Rick .
The last compression reading was at about 80 pounds and when I installed the new rings there was a fairly snug .014" gap . And , I set them at about 120° . I don't know what the rotary valve clearance is . That would have more to do with vacuum , I'd think .
The bike ran better with the OEM coil in place .
Pete . :)
80 lbs is good. The factory spec on the rings is .008-.010, but this brings up another point. One of the old timers at Portland thought this was too tight. I would also check the crank seal. Maybe your vacuum is way down, and you are sucking air around the crank instead of through the carburetor.
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The one thing I can't seem to get a handle on is what keeps changing .
One day it runs good enough for me to ride a couple miles , the next it won't run for a minute .
I'm thinking that maybe points and condenser , but ??? Nova II ?
The crank seal is new , installed 2 years ago . I have not tested vacuum .
Pete . :)
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I spent a little time studying .
I re-learned what I once knew and had forgotten : Ignition coils are matched , by the manufacturer , with condensers ( capacitors ) for maximum performance and system balance .
That fact could explain why my motor runs and then not . I have used the same condenser while trying different coils and getting a multitude of results . I'll pick up a new and hopefully good condenser tomorrow .
If that doesn't do it , I'll likely be tearing the motor down to threads .
Pete . :)
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Dang . The motor runs less than 10 minutes and then quits . It gets enough RPMs to move the bike and that's it .
It seems to have vacuum with my hand over the breather method . No carb blow back at all .
That's with a Carpenter carb , Cushman coil and condenser . Fresh premium with Opti2 mixed .
Tomorrow the motor gets pulled and taken apart .
I'll do a compression test before .
I've never had a motor do what this one is doing , but then , I've not had a Simplex motor , other than this one , before .
Pete . :)
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I was waylaid . :( Other stuff had to be done . Like a new battery and brass cable ends for the Monaco motor and the wiper motor on the Jeep decided it needed attention . And , 'someone' left my shop ( actually it's just a shed I took over for the Summer ;) ) a total mess . I'm taking a break right now from cleaning it , in prep for the Simplex motor tear down .
Hopefully , getting there . ???
Pete . :)
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So far this morning :
A compression test showed only about 65 pounds ... A few weeks ago , it was at about 80 pounds .
The spark plugs are burning clean , a light tanish coloring . Both plugs are clean , even though the inside plug is insulated from it's wire .
I removed the compression plate cover and plate . I found very tiny bits of what at first looked to be carbon in the bottom of the crankcase , black , but a bit too shiny . Then I took the cylinder off . The bore looks pretty good with a couple places showing a bit of what seems like blow-by and a couple of very light scuffs .
The piston showed much the same as the cylinder , but the scuffs are deeper .
The connecting rod both top and bottom are way too loose . Loose to the point of what looks like the back corner of the rod contacting the crankcase . Neither were loose when I put the motor together a couple years ago . That looseness is most likely due to the lower rod bearing being poor quality .
All that leaves me thinking I'll need a new piston / rings and pin ; bore job and a new rod with QUALITY bearing(s) .
I'm glad I quit running the bike when I did . Much more damage would definitely have followed , otherwise .
Pete . :)
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Pete, post a picture of the rod bearing please. Is it a double row bearing? Is the cage intact, or did it come apart?
A couple of the old timers at Portland are always preaching about replacing the roller bearing with a needle bearing, as they say they have seen many rod bearing failures.
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Rick ,
This bearing defintely failed . It is a double row bearing and the outside ball cage is no longer there . That's what the bits were that I found in the crankcase , as far as I can tell . I'll post a pic after I get back out there this afternoon .
I'll be installing that roller bearing you posted about .
Pete . :)
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Make sure you get one with an inner ring! The one I ordered did not have one, and I wound up having to order one separately. I will update with part number when I get it.
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I'd appreciate that .
About the billet rods you're running : where did you get them and are they still available ?
And , what about the over sized piston ?
Pete . :)
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Here is a pic of the failed bearing :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/d6pw262qx/HPIM1982_zpsmv5cduq5.jpg)
Here's a pic of the rod where I think it contacted the case .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/407levxih/HPIM1983_zps8j9temwi.jpg)
I checked the case and it shows where the rod 'bumped' . Just a mar , with no evidence of anything more .
Pete . :)
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That is pretty discolored. Looks like it got really hot.
Wayne is the source for the billet rods and pistons. He can also bore your cylinder for you.
Bob Kerr also does the billet rod with the needle bearing conversion. His uses a custom size bearing and he must have your crank to fit it. Here are a couple of pictures of his rod.
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Got the inner ring today.
Now, if I had ordered properly, I would not have had a problem. It seems I misread, and ordered a RNA2202-2RS bearing.. This does not include an inner ring, and is made to ride directly on a shaft.
The CORRECT PART NUMBER is NA2202-2RS. This includes the inner ring.
The company below is where I bought mine. They have the correct bearing, available from 3 different manufacturers. Just type the part number in the search. I personally choose the INA brand, as they are made in Germany. The NRB bearings are cheaper, but made in India. The FAG brand, I don't know the origin, but are the most expensive.
http://www.locateballbearings.com/Search
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Thanks for that ^ , Rick .
How do Wayne's billet rods compare to Bob's ?
And , you said you installed a longer rod ... how much longer ?
I would think not too much , as even a protruded tip spark plug is way to 'deep', even with an indexing 'washer' . They get closed without a full stroke .
Pete . :)
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I have never used one of Bob's, but they look nicer. Wayne's does not have a bronze bushing in the small end, the pin just rides in the aluminum.
Wayne makes a standard size and a .030 longer rod.
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Thanks , Rick .
Looks like I'll be talking to Wayne , before long .
Pete . :)
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I finally sent my cylinder to Wayne for boring to an oversize piston with rings . I asked him to fit that piston with a wrist pin and clips , along with a billet connecting rod .
I noticed that his shipping address is different than the address in Bob Gurkin's post in the suppliers section .
Hopefully , I'll end up with a motor that runs for more than 10 minutes .
Pete . :)
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The reason for 2 addresses, you can't ship UPS or FedEx to a PO Box. 91 Hudson Road, Decatur, Al is his physical address.
I have the same issue. We do not have home mail delivery in my town, so we are issued a PO Box by the USPS, no charge. If a package is sent FedEx or UPS to me, then I give my street address.
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Ah , makes sense . I should have figured that out .
We have two . Where we happen to be at the moment and our mail service 'resident' address .
Pete . :)
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My cylinder and new parts came via the brown box on wheels this afternoon .
Wayne does some very nice work .
Maybe now I can have a decent running bike .
I'll make work of getting it back together and see how it turns out .
Pete . :)
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The motor is back together and looks pretty good .
I haven't tried to fire it yet . Gotta save something for tomorrow . ;)
I replaced the OEM compression plate screws with socket head screws . 8 - 32 X 1/2" . I went with standard lock washers on top of flat washers . All stainless .
The OEM screws are 3/8" long . I had a couple of those loosen a little too much , as if they were starting to strip threads . I checked the screw holes and found there was room for 1/2" , but an extra washer was needed for a nice snug fit on 4 of the dozen holes .
Anyway , I think it looks fairly decent and there was no sense of thread weakness , likely due to the extra threads I was able to reach with the longer screws . I'm glad it worked out that way as I really didn't want to go with bigger screws or have to install heli coils .
Pete . :)
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This morning , I spun the motor a few times , then flipped the ignition switch to RUN .
Run it does , and very nicely . It's a one kick to start machine and takes me down the road at about 40 MPH . Maybe a bit faster , but I had no speedometer to tell me for sure .
I'm very happy with the way the motor turned out .
Now , I have to work on better lighting .
After I go for another ride .;)
Pete . :)
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Excellent Pete! Now you can ride with us at Portland next year.
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Yup . But , I'll have to clean the piston and cylinder up and then put everything back together , again .
Something got into the cylinder and caused a seizure . Not real bad , if any seizure can be anything but .
It must have been in there from the start as I heard something that I thought was probably the transmission making a noise . I was wrong .
I found no evidence that anything was on top of the piston . I think whatever it was introduced through the exhaust port . The seizure site was at the exhaust port 'rib' . On the piston , from just above the rings to the bottom of the skirt . I think the piston is salvageable and should clean up decent . The cylinder should clean up with just a few passes with a hone .
So much for a fresh bore and piston . :(
Pete . :)
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Did you measure the ring gap? How about piston clearance? I have posted before, but I think Wayne keeps it a little tighter than others would like. If you don't have .005" piston clearance cold, it will seize when hot. I have measured the piston growth at about .004" at 425 degrees. I set the rings around .008", but Bob Kerr told me that is the MINIMUM. He suggests a little more, like .010".
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I did not measure the ring gap or piston clearance , yet . My mistake .
The noise I heard was being made right from the first start , cold .
The piston seemed a bit tight , but I thought with a fresh bore that was typical .
Anyway , I'm sure that after I get things cleaned up , there will be more clearance .
I'll check the ring gap before I put it all together .
Rick , Thanks for posting the clearances I should have .
Pete . :)
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I tore the top end off the motor and honed the cylinder until I could have a .005" feeler gauge blade alond side the piston inside the cylinder and still move the piston . The ring gap : one has .011" and the other has .014" clearance .
I put it back together and it fired and ran nicely , for about twice as long as it did with Wayne's bore job . It is siezed , again .
I'm getting a bit tired of this ...
Pete . :)
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Pete, remove the rings from the piston. Then take the cylinder and piston and put them in the oven. Heat until 300, then check clearance, increase in 25 degree increments until the piston seizes or 400 degrees, which ever comes first. I have done this on 3 different motors, and have found that at 400 I have .003" clearance. This seems to be enough.
FYI, I have found that the cylinder is always tighter at the bottom then the top.
Keep after it Pete, you will get there.
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Rick ,
What ratio of oil mix do you use ?
And , according to your previous post , the piston grew .004" @ 400° , plus the .003" clearance at that time , equals .007" . That should be the cold piston clearance for 'safe' operation , assuming adequate lubrication .
Correct ?
Pete . :)
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Pete, piston grew .004 at 425, that is the hottest I ever tested one.
At 400, I see around .002-.003 growth. IMO, the cold clearance isn't important, it is the hot clearance that you need to be concerned with.
I run 40-1, or thereabouts. Same mixture I run in my weed eater and blower. I know Tom and some of the other guys like to run closer to 20-1. Don't lean out the carburetor too much or you will lose cooling and lubrication.
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Too lean may be my main problem . The piston is seizing on the exhaust skirt . That means too lean . I'm running Opti2 at their recommended mix . I think that may be close to 50>1 . The carb is set at about 1 1/2 + turns out for both . I'll double check that in the morning .
Pete . :)
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When tearing down my motor for seizure repair , I noticed the new rings on my new piston had seemingly drifted from the 120° position I had them set at when I put the motor together to only about 10° - 12° apart . That and the ends were directly in line with the transfer ports . Not good .
They were in the same position when I tore the motor down from the first seizure .
What might cause that ?
I'm thinking I better pin the rings while I have the motor apart .
Pete . :)
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Having to pin the piston rings in order to keep the ends from drifting over a port , I bought a couple of compression pins . Also called roll pins or slotted spring pins , some even call them dowel pins .
Anyway , can anyone think of a good reason not to use them in this application ?
TIA .
Pete . :)
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I don't see a problem with that, maybe a little loc-tite also?
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That or maybe a needle punch in the landing , on either side of the pin , once installed ???
I'm not really sold on either 'added' measure as the pin will be locked into the hole by the overlapping ring ends . And , the pin hole will be blind , as far as I can tell . There seems to be enough material behind the landings to allow that . But , I haven't measured to be sure .
Pete . :)
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In the cool of this morning , I pinned the piston , using 1/4" long x 3/32" wide compression pins .
I drilled the landings above the wrist pin , but toward the rear , to a depth of about 5/32" . The pins had to be driven in , so it's unlikely that much , if any, outward drift will happen . I squared the outer end of the pins and called them 'good for service' .
Then the ring ends needed relieving to fit the pins . I used a jewelers square file to reach that 'end' .
All things considered , I think the project turned out nicely .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/dajpif889/HPIM1987_zpsrisotftu.jpg)
Now to ready the piston and cylinder for assembly . Hopefully , for the last time .
Pete . :)
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Looks good, I will be watching this test.
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Thanks , Rick .
I see it as my not having any choice but to pin the rings . Both times I took the piston out of the cylinder , the ring ends were directly in line with the transfer ports . No way could I live with that .
The only question in my mind is : will the compression pins hold up as well as solid pins .
I guess I'll find out .
Pete . :)
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Dang good thing this is a hobby . If it isn't one thing , it's another ...
I put the motor together and tried to start it . Spun real nice , but not fire . I pulled the plug and it's dry ; spark seems a bit weak .
I pulled the carb apart and cleaned that . Tried to start it and got a few intermediate pops .
I'll have to pull the flywheel to check what is not copacetic under there . I'm thinking that maybe the key is partially sheared due to the seizure ???
Pete .:)
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Be sure to do one thing. Shoot a little oil into the cylinder to keep it lube until it runs. That and it helps with compression in the beginning and the extra oil burns out when it runs.
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Hi Reese ,
I generally shoot a bit of WD40 into a freshly honed cylinder . It penetrates the rings/landings and does a light initial lube . It also helps the rings to seat a bit quicker , being as it is so light weight .
Pete . :)
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I finally had the motor running , again . But , I could not get it to accelerate and it had very little power . It wouldn't stay running for very long without constant feathering . And , once it got hot after the last test ride , it acted like it was starting to seize , again .
I honed the cylinder until there was .008" piston clearance , just prior to this last fiasco .
I pulled the compression plate and found a nice puddle of very dark fuel/oil mix in the bottom of the crankcase .
That has been true each time I removed the compression plate since before the 'Wayne bore' .
That begs the question : how can I have a flooding problem , with the piston skirts and inside soaked in fuel/oil mix , and simultaneously have seizures ?
The float needle is not doing it's job . There are times I can see fuel dripping out of the air filter housing . And , the carb adjustment settings have to be set much leaner than any that have been suggested here . A bit over half a turn on the idle screw and about a full turn on the needle valve screw . Those lean settings and a flooding go hand in hand and likely why the motor doesn't accelerate .
I took a cylinder compression reading : right at 100 pounds .
The ring pinning has held nicely , so far . But , there isn't more than an hour run time involved .
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know you have a good amount of compression try taking the carb off and check how muck vacuum you have. Then with the piston up add some air in the carb port to see if there might be loss around gaskets.
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Thanks , Reese .
Sounds like a plan . ;)
I did notice that the base gasket was wet . I tightened the bolts and took care of that leak .
Then this last time apart I thought new gaskets might be a good idea . While cleaning surfaces , I found that the cylinder mating surface had uneven 'low spots' .
I took a flat file and lightly went over the surface . Going all around the sleeve , several times , until I could see bright aluminum all the way around . There are still some low spots , kinda like pot marks , but they are now surrounded by continuous flat surface , if that makes sense . I haven't noticed any wet base gasket , since .
I'll give that air pressure in the intake a go .
Pete . :)
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I see this site has been abandoned , at least it would seem so by the amount of posts made lately . :(
Anyway , I fired the '57 motor today but couldn't get it to settle into a 'comfortable' idle . I had to keep the RPMs up for it to run . I noticed that the compression plate gasket was very moist around the outside edges , even though I have the screws as tight as I dare without stripping threads . I have to do a better job of sealing that .
Pete . :)
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You are certainly right about it being quiet here lately. I guess nobody has a project going? I will be starting on a new project shortly, and will post pictures of the progress. I am going to scale up a frame a few inches in each direction while keeping the proportions the same.
Pete, the compression plate doesn't need to be tightened to death. I just snug the screws up. I don't think that is your problem.
Did you check the condition of the crankshaft seal? That could be a source of an air leak.
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I have not checked the crank seal . I've been trying to avoid that , but ...
The seal bushing is original . Maybe it's worn a bit too thin . As I recall , it seemed to be in decent shape when I installed it .
We'll be leaving for our Fall Southward Meander on the 6th or 7th of October . I'm getting short on time to have anything apart .
Pete . :)
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The Simplex sits patiently secured to the trailer .
We're currently camped close to Columbus , Mississippi for a few days . Might be a week before I can 'unpack' the Simplex for further testing and possible exploratory surgery . Not being able mess with the bikes is one thing I miss while on the road , but , usually there are other things that occupy my time .
Pete . :)
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Where are you camping for the winter? I hope you ar back at Portland next year with the bike running.
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Rick ,
We'll spend a month or two in Long Beach , Mississippi again this Winter . Then around the first of the year , we'll drift our way along the Gulf coast toward the Mexican border . We'll visit with friends that are close to San Antonio , at some point .
We'll host the same park next Summer as last , so I should be able to get to Portland again . I'm planning on it .
The bike will be running . ;)
Pete . :)
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Pete,
When you get to the gulf coast, give me a call at 228-806-7670. I live in Ocean Springs, MS. Mike Montgomery
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I will do that , Mike .
Pete . :)
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Mike ,
I'm sorry I did not contact you this past Winter . I believe you said that you'll be at Portland . I look forward to meeting you .
We're back , hosting at the same park we hosted the last two Summers . I plan on Portland again this year . Portland's long range forecast is for 80s and humid with rain possible a couple of days that the meet is 'in session' .
Currently , I'm in the process of cleaning the park shed of Winter storage . It looks like I'll have enough room to fit the Simplex in there and still have room to work on it . (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif)
Working outside , dodging rain , sucks . (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsdown.gif)
Hopefully , I can get the motor running decent , before Portland .
Pete . :)
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Pete, I will look for you. I am riding up with Herb Weeks from Mobile. Mike
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Took about a week , but the '57 is finally in the shed . I rolled it off the trailer and gave it a decent bath as I hadn't done anything but look at it since late September of last year .
These dang bikes are a bear to clean . All the nooks , crannies and really tight spots ... :(
I think I'll be buying some S100 . Spray it on have a cup of coffee and rinse it off . Sparkling clean machine . ;)
http://www.s100.com/
Now comes the real work : getting it running , reliably .
Pete . :)
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My Dad always said, " ya can't miss your coffee break"! I should try this stuff.
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Tom ,
I moderate a bike forum and the guys that have tried it say they won't go back to what they used before .
Pete . :)
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Pete, you better have that bike running so you can ride with us! I think I will have the stretch up and running, all in bare steel! If we have rain like last year, I will not have to paint it, I can run with the patina.
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Ha . Patina ... My '57 has gained a bit of patina sitting on the trailer for the last 8 months . It sure doesn't seem that long .
I had problems crop up with both my XT350 and the FA50 recently . Those are both back in shape , so now I have the '57 to contend with . I swear , I've never had a motor give me so much grief as this little Simplex .
Pete . :)
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Today , I started work on my bike .
Checked spark : redish purple . That's real pretty , but , I'd rather see a fat white spark . I'm wondering if that red spark is being blown out before it does any good . I know that can happen in some of the Honda in line 4s .
Checked compression : 105 pounds . I'd rather have half again as much , but , I've read that these motors can run on as little as 60 pounds ( I find that amazing , if true ) .
What is the normal compression of these motors ? Maybe I missed that in the manuals .
Tomorrow , I'll pull the carb and give that a thorough cleaning and check float level .
Pete . :)
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I have tested compression on 3 motors that I have built, and all have been between 75-90 psi. Wayne has told me in the past they will run at 65 psi.
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That's likely what I'd read . Your mention of the 65# .
At 100+ pounds , I should be fine . I just have to get the thing to run .
Pete . :)
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Progress report :
I pulled the flywheel and found a bit of moisture . Removed that with a spritz of brake cleaner ( works great ; easy on rubber / plastics and leaves no residue ) . I also found a fairly loose high tension wire connection to the coil . Tightened that and replaced the flywheel . Then tested for plug spark : crisp white sparks . :)
I tried to start the motor , but noticed that the fuel line was mostly filled with air . Allowed the air to exit by loosening the upper fuel line fitting .
Tried to start it again . Choke , no go . Choke with my palm closing off the air filter and after a few rounds the motor came alive , but wouldn't stay running . Messed with the carb adjustment screws and got to stay alive at a high idle . All that with no load ( released the transmission tension spring ) .
By this time the motor was getting very warm . I plugged the house fan in and aimed it directly at the cylinder . Hit the high speed button .
Then I reset the transmission spring and had to adjust the carb a bit to keep the motor running , under load .
It was time for dinner ... got back to a cooled motor and tried to kick start : not a chance . Resort to power start with success . Released the transmission spring again and tried a kick start and it started nicely and gains RPMs with ease .
That's where I left it for the night .
Pete . :)
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Pete, solder the high tension wire to the coil. I have found with the Carpenter reproduction carburetor that the screws need to be opened at least another half turn than the stock Tillotson. I start at 1 1/2 turns out on each, and sometimes end up around 2 turns out. Be careful not over tighten them. I have used 3 of these repro carbs now with great results.
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Rick ,
I ran the motor a bit yesterday and noticed that it wanted to lope a little and then finally die . I'm wondering if the fuel metering tube could cause that .
How many tube side holes do you run ? IIRC , you drill extra to match OEM .
I tried that with the MT9 carb but closed one set of holes with better results . That may have been because of different size tube end holes . A while back , I asked a question about the end hole size , but never got and answer from anyone .
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=1341.msg11796#msg11796
Pete . :)
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I have spoken to Wayne about drilling the extra holes. He says he has done both and has not noticed much difference. I have to agree with him, as I drilled them on my 2 simplex automatics, but not on the Sportsman, and I see no difference either.
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OK , then I have to look for a different reason .
Maybe I have too much 'stuff' packed in my exhaust 'can' . I could try pulling everything out , but that'll make it pretty loud .
I'm grasping at straws . :(
Pete . :)
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OK , then I have to look for a different reason .
Maybe I have too much 'stuff' packed in my exhaust 'can' . I could try pulling everything out , but that'll make it pretty loud .
I'm grasping at straws . :(
Pete . :)
I don't think you should have anything packed in the your can! lol
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OK , then I have to look for a different reason .
Maybe I have too much 'stuff' packed in my exhaust 'can' . I could try pulling everything out , but that'll make it pretty loud .
I'm grasping at straws . :(
Pete . :)
I don't think you should have anything packed in [the] your can! lol
When you put it that way , I definitely agree . :D
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Today , I pulled a little bit of fiberglass out of my muffler can . There wasn't near as much as I had put in there . I think the burnt fiberglass fairy took some for her collection . ;)
Then I started the motor to see if there was any noticeable difference . It ran just long enough for me to make out two decibels difference before it ran out of gas . I couldn't find my premix oil , so it's a good thing there's usually tomorrow .
Pete . :)
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I made a rookie mistake .
I took compression readings while using power to rotate the crank ( much higher RPMs ) , instead of using the kick lever .
So , instead of 100+ pounds of compression , I'm lucky to get 60 , with a very brief threat ( needle bounce ) close to 65 pounds . :(
No wonder the thing won't idle down , let alone start with the kick lever .
I'm basically at the same point I was 3 years ago when I rolled the bike out of the barn . Worse really . At least then I could kick start and ride for a few minutes .
Pete . :)
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Did you put rings in the motor? If so, what is the gap?
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The only new rings were what came with the new piston from Wayne .
I have to tear the top end off and take measurements . I plan on another set of rings , at least .
Hopefully that will improve the compression enough to make the motor serviceable .
I think I recall you saying that ring end gap should be .006" - .008 or .010" .
IIRC , the last end gap was at .014" .
Like I said , I have to take some measurements .
Pete . :)
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The 1953 Book of instructions lists gap at .008-.010.
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Rick ,
I don't see that book of instructions . Maybe I missed it ?
Where can I find it ?
Pete . :)
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Rick ,
I don't see that book of instructions . Maybe I missed it ?
Where can I find it ?
Pete . :)
On the shelf in my den. Come on over, you can borrow it. LOL
If that is too far to travel, it is posted here: http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=100.0
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Ha . Thanks for the invite , but I already have that book downloaded . I just didn't know it was a 1953 publication .
And , It sure does state the ring end gap , right there in the middle of page 5 .
I guess I'll have to reread ALL the manuals and whatnot .
Thanks ,
Pete . :)
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I think I found the cause of my low compression .
Something got in between the piston and cylinder wall and created a few scores . Just enough to have locked the rings in the landings . The scores are not deep on the piston and virtually nothing on the cylinder wall . I have the rings off the piston and have cleaned and refurbished the landings .
I'll put everything back together and see what happens .
Hopefully , the bad gremlins have had their fun and this will be the end of the shenanigans . It's been one seizure after another ... I've just about had it . For some reason , my patience is starting to wear a bit thin .
Pete . :)
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Been there on more than one occasion. Like they say, anything with tits, tires, or transistors is bound to give you troubles eventually!
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I've had my trials with all of those . Some were good and some not so .
I'd really like this one to turn good . ;)
Pete . :)
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What could have gotten into the chamber you think? When I get frustrated with a motorcycle/moped project, I find taking a ride on one of my other bikes that's running well, sometimes helps with my mood and outlook on the problem. Or you can just beat the hell out of the bike with a hammer...LOL
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I really don't know , but I'd guess maybe a grain or two of sand while doing a plug check .
The motor was cleaned with brake cleaner each time it was apart . I suppose something might have slipped by , even then .
I ride almost daily and true , it is good for the soul . Like I've read , you never see a bike in front of a psychiatrists office . ;)
Pete . :)
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Pete, what is your piston clearance? Did you ever do an oven check? I have found that I need .005-.006 or I have seizure issues. I heat the piston and cylinder in an over and check clearance every 50 degrees. I have gone as high as 400 and still have .003 clearance, this is starting with .006.
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Rick ,
I can fairly easily slide a .006" feeler between the piston and cylinder wall . An .008" feeler is very tight and will not allow the piston to travel . So , being as I don't have a .007" feeler , I'm guessing that the clearance is ABOUT .007" or maybe a half a hair less .
I have not done an oven check . According to your findings , I would think that I'd be OK .
But , I'll fire the grill up anyway .
I'm thinking that these air cooled motors only reach about 250° . Could be a bit higher .
You took temperature readings of a running motor a while back . Do you recall what those temps were ?
Pete . :)
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I think you are way underestimating upper cylinder temperature. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to remember my bikes at around 275-295. I seem to remember Jim Lokai told me he has seen 400 degrees!
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Wow . That just seems way too high at 400° .
Anyway , I just pulled the cylinder and piston out of the grill after a 20+ minute heating on high .
I could slide a .005" feeler between with some force .
Hopefully , that will be good enough and not too much clearance .
Pete . :)
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I put the motor back together and it ran for a second .
But , now , the carb is clogged with what , I don't know as I have a fuel strainer in the tank along side the strainer in the petcock .
I'll tackle that after dinner . Maybe .
Pete . :)
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It does run . I can not start it by kick . Only by power and then it's pretty touchy .
New rings are needed , at least . My end gap is way to wide at about .024" .
I'm not sure a tighter gap will improve the compression enough to make a difference , but , I'm going to give it a shot .
Pete . :)
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It does run . I can not start it by kick . Only by power and then it's pretty touchy .
New rings are needed , at least . My end gap is way to wide at about .024" .
I'm not sure a tighter gap will improve the compression enough to make a difference , but , I'm going to give it a shot .
Pete . :)
That ring gap is twice what I would consider acceptable, but Bob Kerr also said do not go too tight!
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I took a compression test after I put it back together with a reading of about 70 pounds . Not near what it should be , but ...
The fact that it will only start with higher RPMs and then wants to die at lower RPMs tells me that compression is too low .
Pete . :)
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Today I tried a 6 hole fuel metering tube . The Carpenter carbs come with 4 hole tubes .
That did seem to help some , but still no kick lever joy .
I have new rings coming .
Pete . :)
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I can't remember Pete, is this a factory piston or one of Wayne's replacements? Did you bore the cylinder? I would at least hone the cylinder before putting in the new rings.
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Rick ,
I had Wayne bore it last Summer , to one of his replacement pistons . I also bought one of his connecting rods ( standard length ) .
I have over size rings coming . I'll have to 'dress' the ends to fit the pins and also for proper end gap clearance .
And , honing goes hand in hand with new rings . But , this time I'll only put a decent cross hatch in . They won't seat properly without .
I don't want to take anymore cylinder wall than absolutely necessary . Too much and I'll have to get new piston and rings .
Pete . :)
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Did you pin the rings? If so, take a picture when you have it apart. I know this has been discussed here before, but I don't know if anyone here has done it. Seems like a good idea to me.
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Rick ,
Quote from: pd on September 04, 2015, 08:09:10 AM
"In the cool of this morning , I pinned the piston , using 1/4" long x 3/32" wide compression pins .
I drilled the landings above the wrist pin , but toward the rear , to a depth of about 5/32" . The pins had to be driven in , so it's unlikely that much , if any, outward drift will happen . I squared the outer end of the pins and called them 'good for service' .
Then the ring ends needed relieving to fit the pins . I used a jewelers square file to reach that 'end' .
All things considered , I think the project turned out nicely .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/dajpif889/HPIM1987_zpsrisotftu.jpg)
Now to ready the piston and cylinder for assembly . Hopefully , for the last time .
Pete . :)"
End quote .
Ha . I know ... getting old is a bitch . ;)
Through all the 'testing' and such , the pins have held their position .
Pete . :)
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You didn't happen to write down the ring gap when you first put it together?
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Sure did , Rick .
The ring gap at build time after pinning : one was .011" and the other was .014" clearance .
The gap obviously grew with each honing , which I knew it would .
I just didn't expect it to reach .024" so quickly .
Pete . :)
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Sure did , Rick .
The ring gap at build time after pinning : one was .011" and the other was .014" clearance .
The gap obviously grew with each honing , which I knew it would .
I just didn't expect it to reach .024" so quickly .
Pete . :)
Tighten that up to .008 and I think your troubles will be gone.
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Wouldn't that be great ?
I'll hold any celebration until your theory proves itself . ;)
Once bitten ( or in this case - several ) , twice shy kinda thing .
New rings are the next logical step . Hopefully the one that breaks the 3 year streak I've had with this motor .
Good thing we're not talking droughts or I might have another 4 years to look forward to .
Pete . :)
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I rec'd. the new rings this afternoon .
They are a simple square cast as opposed to the inner upper beveled rings I originally rec'd. with the new piston .
They should do fine . If I'm not mistaken , the OEM rings were / are square cast . I still have the originals , so I'll check .
I plan to seal the intake holes . Both the screw from the bottom and the drain holes . I'm thinking that at the same time , I'll 'ramp' that section of the intake tube for a smoother transition from the carb to the crank .
Here's the way it was :
(https://s26.postimg.org/90d9o17jd/HPIM1557.jpg)
Right now , I have the drain hole plugged , but I'm not sure that it's sealed good .
Pete . :)
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Today , before my attention was required elsewhere , I was able to size , shape and fit the new rings to the piston .
The rings were a perfect .008" at the bottom of the bore , but when positioned about mid ring travel area , the gap almost completely disappeared . That proves that the bore is looser at the bottom than the top , which is exactly why rings have to be gaped mid travel or near the top of travel .
I gaped them at .008" at mid travel area and had to shape the ends to accept the pins . Due to expansion , I didn't dare leave them any tighter .
I got as far as setting the cylinder and piston on the case before I heard my name questioningly called . :(
Good thing there's usually tomorrow . ;)
Pete . :)
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Top end is back on the case .
The compression is up about 10 pounds , but I expect that to increase once the rings find their home .
Initially , I used power to start the motor , which ran a bit more smoothly . It still had a time of settling into idle .
I shut it down and tried the kick start . Dang , it started , once . Not the second time , but almost .
Thinking that the idle passage must have some buildup , I have the carb pulled .
I made sure the intake throat drain hole was packed tight and the bottom screw was snugly in place . I have JB Weld , but I'm very hesitant to use it to fill that step of the intake throat . If it ever came loose ... :(
I'm not sure just what I'll do there .
Anyway , I've seen some improvement .
Pete . :)
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This morning , I pulled the carb apart and went nuts with brake cleaner . I took a very fine piece of wire and carefully inserted that into the idle passages from the throat . The rear went easily . The very small hole just ahead of that one was a bit more difficult , but it did take the wire . A nice stream of brake cleaner blasts through those holes , now . Hopefully , I'll have a better idle .
I decided to chance it . I mixed some JB Weld . I removed the bottom screw and recessed the material I had in the drain hole . Cleaned the area with brake cleaner and applied the JB mix . I pressed it in both holes . The JB wanted to run out the screw hole at first and out of the the throat port , so a piece tape came to the rescue . It's already starting to set up , but I'll let the JB mix set overnight before trying to do any final forming .
I guess that answers my question of what I'll do with the intake throat . ;)
Pete . :)
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Crap , just tripped and landed with rusty nail in my hand . I pulled it out , then proceeded to bleed and bleed some more . Got that cleaned and starting the recoup thing. Starting to feel it . I suspect that tomorrow will show a few tight muscles . :(
Anyway , the JB Weld seems to have set fairly decent . Shrunk a little , as expected . It trimmed not as pretty as I'd have liked , but , nice enough .
While fitting the carb to the case , I noticed the mount flange of the carb was not flat . That , due to the 'ears' being farther away from the body . A good flat file took care of the issue . I cut a new gasket and mounted the carb .
Started it with power . It ran fine , after a couple adjustments .
BUT , still no kick starting . So , I gained little , if anything . :(
Pete . :)
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I think it is time to look elsewhere for your problem. Have you considered low vacuum? Maybe your rotating clearance is too large?
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Yes , I've been thinking about vacuum .
I'm wondering if the crank seal is not copacetic .
Another thing , may be that the points are off enough to let the motor run at higher RPMs and not lower .
Pete . :)
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I pulled the magneto and drive pulley in order to check the crank seal and bushing .
I found that dang spoke pattern oil stain on the back side of the drive pulley . Not real heavy , but very noticeable .
While inspecting farther, I noticed that the lip of the oil seal was 'just' over the edge of the bushing . Pulled the bushing , which is in very nice condition , but for a slightly rounded outer edge . Maybe from the seal riding there .
I cut a gasket ( looks like a washer ) to match the bushing and placed it between the crank bushing stop and bushing . That in an attempt to eliminate any possible air leak . I flipped the bushing prior to installation so the squarest edge would be out . Then I applied a couple rounds of twisted thread tape to the crank before adding a 1 mm thick washer . The washer is a couple mm more than the outside diameter of the bushing . Hopefully , the washer will keep the seal lip on the bushing .
Locked all that in place with the drive pulley and re-mounted the magneto .
If that doesn't do the trick , I'll try a seal that is a mm smaller inside diameter .
I had to glue the magnet back in place that I had gorilla glued in place a few years ago . I guess maybe I didn't clean the mating surfaces good enough the first time .
That's where I left things for the night .
Pete . :)
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It ran long enough for me to think that maybe I had something good going on .
There was still no joy using the kick , but it was starting easier with power .
Now , I get to pull the top end , as the motor seized yet again . :(
The fun never stops .
Pete . :)
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I pulled the cylinder and piston .
Only a light seizure , but a seizure none the less .
Now the hunt for why , again ... too much air from somewhere , but where ?
I'll fix it , put it back together again , start and let it warm up . Then brake cleaner gets applied to all gasket-ed joints and the crank seal . Any rise in RPM will be the tell .
Pete . :)
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Put the motor back together . I think I'm wearing the nuts and bolts with all this on off business . LOL
Anyway , I started it and let it warm up . I tried getting some starting fluid around the crank seal , but I'm not sure that actually happened . Of course , I got called away , so I didn't complete my 'leak' test .
I did kick start it , once . Maybe some progress , hopefully .
Pete . :)
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Still no kick starting . :(
I used starting fluid for the vacuum ( leak ) test . I found no evidence of a leak .
I found it strange that when I sprayed a little in the intake the motor died .
The motor only wants to run at RPMs just low enough so the transmission doesn't fully engage . The bike wants to creep . Any lower RPM and it's a very short time until the motor dies .
I'm still thinking that the compression is too low as evidenced by the way the motor started and ran after I installed the new piston in the Wayne bore . Granted the clearance was too tight and it seized , but , while it ran , it ran strong and started easy with the kicker .
That and at the same time I have to wonder if maybe the magneto magnets are weak and not generating enough spark at low RPMs .
Grasping at straws , still . :(
I'm open to any suggestions .
Pete . :)
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My wife asked me if I was in a bad mood . I said no , just deep in thought about why this motor was giving me such a hard time .
Anyway , during that thought period it occurred to me that there might be a casting leak that shows after the motor warms . I'll have to do a pressure test . That means I'll have to build a pressure tester .
It's likely the only way that I'll be able to tell for sure if there are any leaks .
Like I said ... grasping at straws .
There has to be an answer , somewhere .
Pete . :)
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I know Gary Wollard created a vacuum tester that he would place were the carb goes. I don't know too much about it or if it even helped him diagnose an engine. Seems like it would tell you something be it pressure or vacuum whatever you choose. I know that a third port style 2 stroke requires base pressure and cylinder pressure(compression). I have a Sears Sabre that haunted me once. Turns out it had a poltergeist and I had to perform an exercism. Drove me nuts!
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I might be a little past nuts and approaching obsession with this motor , Tom .
I've had a couple boat motors gave me fits , but nothing like this .
Pete . :)
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I did some more 'testing' with starter fluid and found that the crank seal is bad . On more than one try , when I applied the fluid just right , the motor would die immediately . It died immediately when I sprayed only a little bit in the intake while running .
I thought the motor should have raced instead of dying . But , thinking it farther , it makes sense that it would die due to too rich a mixture .
So , now to get a new seal . I'll order a 1 mm smaller seal and hopefully that will be tight enough .
Pete . :)
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While I have to wait for a new seal , I have some electrical 'stuff' that needs attention . I was getting no juice from the headlight coil and had the headlight hooked to one of the tail light coils just to see what would happen . The headlight did illuminate , albeit just . When last I had the flywheel off , I noticed the headlight coil was a bit loose . I tried moving it and found it had come undone , so to speak . Very loosely wound . I'm guessing from vibration after the old tape dried out .
I looked around the 'net' and found a couple that might work . But , I think I might have some luck rewinding it .
I unwound the coil wire onto a cone shaped wire tomato cage , leaving plenty space between wraps . I intended to clear coat the wire , but only had a selection of colored spray paints to choose from . The wire is now satin dark brown mahogany . Hopefully , it's not too choosy as to what it's coated with . ;)
I let that coat dry and wound the wire onto a coffee can so I'll have better control when I have to wind the actual coil . I plan on giving the wire another coat as I finally rewind the coil .
Then , maybe I'll have a little better headlight . Or , at least , some amount of juice to work with .
Pete . :)
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Finally ... I think I did something right , for a change .
I ran the motor long enough to see that my attempt at rewinding the headlight coil turned out decent . The headlight now shines what seems to be 3 - 4 times brighter than it was when I had it hooked to the tail light coil . Like I said , the HL coil was putting out nothing before I rewound it , so yippee . One step forward . (http://www.cb750c.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif)
I did not meter the output of the 'new' coil . I'll do that once I have the motor running as it should . Then to find decent bulbs that will make the best use of what juice is available .
Pete . :)
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New crank seal is installed . Nice tight fit . I left the gasket in place behind the seal race for insurance against a leak there .
Ran the motor , but it quit , rather abruptly . I'll give you one single guess as to what happened .
I let it cool down and tried again . It ran , but begrudgingly .
I get to tear the top end off , again .
Before I do that , I need to do a pressure test . I think that may be the only thing that might tell me where the extra air is coming from .
Maybe I should just rebuild the motor completely . After 3 years of not having it run for more than a few minutes , countless times and hella bucks and time spent , it's likely wore out .
Pete . :)
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I pulled the motor this morning , in preparation for a pressure test . I removed the magneto , carb and exhaust .
I'll have to make blocks to seal the intake and exhaust before I can run the test .
The case looks like it's in very good condition . Smooth surfaces and no indication of cracks , anywhere .
Pete . :)
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Immersion pressure test results : Both intake and exhaust were the only points of leakage .
I used wooden blocks and cork gasket material to seal those ports .
Normally , a pressure test consists of sealing intake and exhaust , then applying 9 - 10 pounds of air which should be held for up to 10 minutes .
I didn't have a pressure gauge or the proper fittings to accomplish that .
I simply submerged the sealed motor ( less the magneto ) in a bucket of water and applied about forty - fifty pounds of air through a spark plug hole . The air nozzle was sealed to the head via hand pressure and a straight rubber spark plug cap .
The leaks appeared almost immediately , which was expected and the object .
Even with higher pressures , I couldn't fine any other points of leakage .
So , I have to find a better way than what I have to seal both ports if I ever want to use this motor and have any kind of reliability.
I'm thinking about using insulator blocks in both places . Obviously , the exhaust block will have to withstand some very high temperatures . I might use 1/4" plate aluminum for that , unless I can come up with a better solution .
Pete . :)
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I'd suggest copper. Rick C.
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I though about that , too , Rick .
Finding it around here might be the challenge .
Pete . :)
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Pete I purchase all my small quantity metals from ebay, copper, brass & odd ball aluminum. Search copper plate & you will find all manner of trim copper from thin sheet to really thick plate & in sizes like 12" x 12" - 4" x 6" etc. It's pricey per foot but really just chump change when compared to perhaps solving your long term 2 cycle problems. I openly confess not being knowledgeable about the Simplex engine, but I've built 6 or 7 double strokers over the last 3 or 4 years with mods ranging from mild to semi-wild & raced and built 2 & 4 cycle motors dating back to the 50's and have used copper exclusively for head gaskets & exhaust manifolds since the late sixties so I'm a believer. Copper may not solve all your current motor problems but properly fabricated and installed copper will insure you're motor won't leak at those critical points you've chosen to seal with it. Best luck, Rick C.
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Ha . Just after I wrote that last post , I thought 'Ebay!!!' . Sure enough , I found something fairly close to what I think I need .
I agree about copper gaskets . I've been messing with motors since the late 50s & early 60s . I had my '72 H1 Kaw apart more times than I probably should have , trying for more , while drag racing . I tried aluminum but had better results from copper .
Maybe I should take heed from others experience and those early lessons .
Thanks Rick C , for your suggestion and the reminder . ;)
Pete . :)
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when I was a teen racing karts in a briggs/stratton 5HP class I cut my head gaskets from a copper sheet . If I recall we annealed them so they were soft before installing them .
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when I was a teen racing karts in a briggs/stratton 5HP class I cut my head gaskets from a copper sheet . If I recall we annealed them so they were soft before installing them .
I recall doing the same on my 500 .
I have to admit that I haven't had to use copper very much over the years , due to the advancements in gasket construction .
Pete . :)
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I've re-used/annealed copper head gaskets on a few occasions myself. For leakdown/pressurization test, I've used expanding rubber boat plugs, and various sized frost plugs with a little adapting before. I've never pressurized more than 20lbs tho.
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Copper plate sold on ebay is quite frequently listed as "dead soft" which will not require annealing in order to easily work the material. Rick C.
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Just out of curiosity , has anyone tried annealing aluminum ?
Pete . :)
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Yes aluminum also goes soft for easier shaping. A torch can be used for a heat source. Books have been written dealing with the complexities so short answers are just that...incomplete. Knowing the type aluminum your annealing will allow you to go to the heat tables (charts) for the proper temperature required. Use a temperature stick to mark the metal for the easiest & quite accurate way to judge when the aluminum reaches that proper temp (it melts) and remove heat. Or you could just experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it, till you discover it's not worth it. Proper re-hardening of the metal is another matter
Unlike steel aluminum does color change so a range of temp sticks are handy to have on hand for ferrous and non ferrous metals...not just for annealing but also hardening. Case hardening steel surfaces with powder is another use for temp sticks. Rick C.
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You meant doesn't change color...I agree ndian22. We worked with alot of different aluminum alloys at our shop for both structural, and ornamental applications. The details involved for proper work annealing and what type rod works with what and how it reacts with things like anodizing sometimes seem more like witchcraft than metallurgy. LOL.
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Hmm , so every time we fire our motors we're annealing any aluminum that's close enough to the heat ...
No wonder the exhaust manifold on my M was misshapen . I applied a bit of heat with a propane torch and was able to get it back into usable shape .
Pete . :)
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Yes what I meant not what I posted! Voodoo metallurgy or NASA rocket science perhaps. I once wasted a lot of time and energy in attempting to TIG aluminum, scrapped from a fighter jet fuselage...never happened, but rivets & resin did! Thanks for pointing out my post confusion.
Pete I don't have my temp charts here but normally I'd say engine heat wouldn't be a great cause for concern in normal use, but many of us were around racing when aluminum heads often warped and blocks cracked. Alloys eventually changed along with manufacturing processes, mechanical designs and associated cooling improvements etc. Today problems are less dramatic but do occur from time to time. Some alloys could soften with enough heat & too little cooling of course, but not ordinary. Rick C.
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This is 60 year old metal . ;)
I have to wonder .
Pete . :)
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Agreed. Modern metallurgy is way more sophisticated since then. Generally an engine made from aluminum alloy, wont reach high enough temperature to affect the strength because it dissipates the heat well. It's hardness, malleability. and wear resistance are all engineered via the composition/percentage of the various alloys added, and the percentage of carbon present. After smelting, (both medium to high carbon steels and aluminum alloys) their properties are greatly affected by how it's cooled (time and temperature) and thus affects how the carbon atoms then "arrange themselves". (sorry it's been 30yrs since metallurgy class) Repeated overheating and cooling could certainly weaken aluminum components, and "old school alloys" would certainly be more susceptible I'd think? 60 years ago nobody would have been able to produce a T6 aluminum 1911 frame like my Kimber, etc...
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Modern alloys steel, aluminum, titanium etc. of the best quality are amazing. I tend to build frames with steel but I have several aluminum frames that have taken long term beatings and are crack free though extremely light. DOM steel tube is freaky strong in small diameters & thin wall. Bike builders 60 years ago would have loved the new materials. Though I use modern alloys I'm still using extra braces, plates and gussets to lend more strength to frames than is required. It's hard to change even when you know your designs don't reflect the advances of technology and I'll probably not alter my frames to take advantage the improved materials. I'm mired in the past it appears, but admire those who truly trust the advances in metals. I do like new things especially when they get old! lol.
Yes the 1911 Kimber is sweet! I still cling to my 1911 long slide Colt .45, but fully acknowledge it's antiquated reliability in a tight spot. Rick C.
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I'm getting back to the '57 after a couple of weeks hiatus ... due to high heat and 90%+ humidity . It would be nice to have an air conditioned shop .
Anyway , I cleaned the roller last night in preparation for mounting the motor in the frame .
I have an aluminum CPU heat sink that has a 1/4" thick base . I'm thinking I can use that base as an insulator for the exhaust manifold . So , I cut the cooling fins off and did a bit of shaping ( sanding ) . It looks like it might just be a good fit . I still have to 'form' it , drilling holes and some grinding or some such .
I'm half thinking about building a different exhaust . 1" EMT seems to be about the closest fit for the manifold and probably the easiest to shape . That whole thought is still being chewed on .
Pete . :)
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You shaping the heat sink the same shape as the manifold in order to use "stock" gaskets between?
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Pretty much the same , Yes . I might leave some material 'outside' the manifold form just to maybe help dissipate more heat . I'm thinking that it isn't going to bend very much , if at all . That might be a limiting factor .
Pete . :)
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Hmm...Aluminum spacer for intake isn't a problem but, the only application using aluminum for an exhaust manifold (I can think of, off-hand) is in Marine applications where they are water jacketed/cooled? Not sure how much heat that AL spacer "will take" at the point of exit/exhaust without affecting it? Copper takes double what AL will, and is why they use it for heads and exhaust gaskets.
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True that^ .
The exhaust manifold itself is aluminum . I know for a fact that it can and has been affected by heat .
Example : my manifold 'was' oval shaped , until I applied a bit of heat and rounded it .
(https://s26.postimg.org/c5awhj78p/HPIM1597.jpg)
The ears are currently bent slightly , probably due to the weight of the muffler and , of course , that allows leakage .
I'm hoping that the insulating effect of the spacer and the two gaskets will be enough to curb the effect heat has on the manifold . But , I'm not really holding my breath ...
Even with the added mass of whatever extra material I can leave on the spacer , the manifold is still close enough to the heat source that there may be no positive difference .
Considering that I seem to be the ONLY one with this problem , I have to ask 'why' .
Does my motor run that much hotter than any others out there ?
Do I happen to have an inferior ( defective ) manifold ?
???
Maybe I should just build a steel manifold . Hmm ...
Pete . :)
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An engine running in a lean condition will have considerably higher temps. You (if memory serves?) were having a possible seal and/or intake leak before, so is it possible your were just overheating the motor and "soft-seizing" on occasion?
Since 2 smokes are much more tempermental to A/F mixture than 4 strokes, I typically will tune my mopeds almost to the point of "four stroking" via "plug chops" to ensure they don't end up on the lean side. (especially at WOT) So many little variables affect them like oil mixture percentage, jetting, pipe, timing, and even plug heat range and gap, I start with the base tune of timing, oil mixture percentage, and pipe and then try to jet them up to a decent amount of black on the plug insulator without them 4-stroking.
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I always true the exhaust manifold mounting surface before installing. It doesn't usually take much. I put some 60 grit on a true surface, like a table saw table, and run it back a forth.
I have not had a problem with the hole getting out of round. As for lean, that will kill your engine! All Simplex motors should be run fat enough that they 4 stroke while decelerating off throttle. If your motor never 4 strokes, you are way too lean.
Have you had the motor run long enough to get a head temp?
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Seems I've had ranges from 375 to 475 on 49cc-70cc 2 stroke mopeds at the head. (Tomos, Puch, Vespa, etc.) Exhausts much hotter...Since I don't have a Servi motor, not sure what a "normal" range would be but, 400 or less would be nice! (really hot days running hard will be "hotter" of course.
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Soft seize ? Sure , had a couple of those . But mostly , I'd call them a hard seize . There's not much soft about the motor halting in fairly short order to the point of not being able to turn over without major force .
The plug and the piston 'dome' has always been black . The piston and cylinder has always had a rich film of oil when I tear things apart .
I always have a fan on high blowing over the motor when running the motor while not moving .
How you describe your 2 stroke tuning is pretty much the same as how I do it . Just this side of 4 stroking . I have a tendency to run a bit too rich . I've had folks tell me that my exhaust smells real rich on many occasions .
Rick ,
I don't have a thermometer able to read head temps .
Pete . :)
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Just throwing it out there...possible it's "seizing" from something other than piston/ring? Crank, piston, rod bearings, etc...
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I always check all points for free travel before I put things back together . I've not had any seizures other than piston to cylinder , which usually locks the rings in the landings .
Pete . :)
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I ruffed in the exhaust spacer / insulator this evening . It's a bit crud yet , but it seems like it'll do . I'll give it a spit and polish tomorrow .
It was too dark for a pic when I came in for the night . I'll have to post something tomorrow .
Pete . :)
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I didn't get to 'finishing' the insulator today , but I did get a little father before the neighbors came by to visit .
Just to give you a bit of history , this is what I started with :
(http://www.conradheatsinks.com/images/2001_c.JPG)
These are what I removed from ^ :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/4nb3i5js9/HPIM0030_zpsqph96ni6.jpg)
To get what I have now , fit to the exhaust port with the manifold in place :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/rq1mhbl9l/HPIM0031_zpstcj9ly8q.jpg)
It still needs a finishing touch and longer mounting studs , but you should get the idea . ;)
Hopefully it will accomplish it's intent .
Pete . :)
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I never realized how large the exhaust port is on a servi motor in relation to the cylinders size. Another "thought" about your seizing I had was...It sounds counter intuitive but, too high a ratio of oil in the pre-mix fuel will also cause an engine to run too lean, and run hot.
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You're up kinda early . :)
I've had seizures while running Opti-2 @ 50>1 as well as Lucas @ about 30>1 .
It's been a bit frustrating , but , it ran longer than 10 minutes when it came from the factory . It'll run longer than 10 minutes , again , someday . I'll just keep trying .
Pete . :)
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Ya, I figured you'd have thought of that. That would have been too easy, right? Like you were eluding to, the different expansion co-efficients of the cylinder and your after-market piston and/or rings would need all the fore mentioned to be checked at their known operating temps to really narrow down the culprit. Speaking of "shot in the dark"... Getting up early lately because I want to take the bike and night-vision binoculars out after midnight couple times this week for the Perseid Meteor shower, so I figured I'd get up early and/or take a nap and do it, weather/cloud cover permitting. Supposed too be twice normal rate per hour.
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The after market piston may be less than OEM , but ???
I heard that early Friday morning will be peak for the shower . I might be up early enough the catch some of the action .
Pete . :)
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Pete, what is the point of this? I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Simplex spent good money engineering and developing their engine over a 25 year period. I would suggest taking the motor completely apart, measuring all the components and build it back to specs. There is no reason your motor will not run as good as the hundreds of Simplex motors out there. There has got to be a reason you are having these problems, the answer is to find it.
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"There is no reason your motor will not run as good as the hundreds of Simplex motors out there. "
That's exactly what I've been telling myself and I've been trying to find the answer as to why it doesn't for the last 3 years , Rick .
New bearings , ignition coil , seal , connecting rod , piston , pin and rings ( twice ) and a new carburetor . I sealed the holes in the intake throat twice , just to be sure . I insured there was no possibility for a leak at the seal bushing .
Base gaskets and compression plate gaskets .
I did a pressure test . Something I've never seen done here before .
The point of this exhaust insulator is to try eliminating an exhaust leak at the cylinder . The manifold is/was warped for a second time ( visibly so ) . It's likely been warped and I hadn't noticed .
I have to tell you that I'm having a hard time with this motor like I've never hard with any other in my life . That's an awful lot of motors , both 2 and 4 stroke . My other bikes ( both 2 and 4 strokes ) are also antiques , but I have them running as good or better than new . But , not my '57 .
Have I thrown in the towel ?
Pete . :)
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I, (along with others I'm sure) have experienced the "mechanical mystery tour" before PD! (wasn't that a Beatles album?) All you can do is try finding the "obvious", and then speculate at the what other possibilities it could be sometimes... Understandably, It can really try your patience. Regardless, Hope ya get it figured out.
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LOL . Yeah , The Beatles ... Magical Ku Ku Kachoo :D
Hopefully I can pull off a bit of magic and get this motor running . ;)
Pete . :)
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Question :
Has anyone ever removed the OEM exhaust studs ?
I put a vise-grip on a couple and could not budge them . I thought that I had them out before , but ???
Pete . :)
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Pete if you can get two two nuts on the stud & tighten them together, then using a small wrench on the nut closest to the motor ease the stud out. Be careful or you will snap the stud off, which often happens even when you're careful. If you're unsuccessful with the afore mentioned process use a propane torch (the blue wrench) to heat the stud while applying pressure with the wrench as outlined first. I've probably used this technique a thousand times mostly with success but I've snapped some off as well. The small diameter studs of unknown metallurgic quality are the worst & I'd say that's what you're dealing with. Be patient and if moderate force doesn't budge it then a good penetrating oil applied a couple of times a day over several weeks will typically do the trick, again using the same techniques I've outlined.
Rick C.
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I use the same method as Rick C, except if I have to go to the heat wrench, I heat up the aluminum around the stud and not the stud itself. When I was a young man, I worked in an exhaust shop for a year, and this is how we removed studs from exhaust manifolds, and we rarely broke one.
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I have done it "both ways" (stud and engine case) Worst case scenario, if it still wont budge (or it broke!) I have "tack welded" a nut to the end of the stud and used an electric impact driver to work it back out.
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I have done it "both ways" (stud and engine case) Worst case scenario, if it still wont budge (or it broke!) I have "tack welded" a nut to the end of the stud and used an electric impact driver to work it back out.
Worst case scenario is drill it out. If it snaps, I would drill a small hole right in the center of the stud. Then step the drill size up slowly, to the point most of the stud is gone, like 75%, then try an EZ-out. Be careful not to snap the EZ-out, as they are darn near impossible to drill.
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Agreed, if the stud breaks at a point which leaves just enough room to manage a weld but on a stud that's stuck tight enough to twist off using a "ultra small" wrench in the first place there's a high percentage chance the stud will shear again & this flush with the block. I've owned machine shops most of my life & almost every sheared stud that was brought into the shop was as a result of a home mechanic wanting instant results and twisting off multiple studs flush & requiring the head to be pulled in order to properly correct...very expensive mistake. Caution, patience and time prepping the effected stud with a good lubricant repeatedly & over an extended period...before using the above mentioned techniques will ensure easy removal but it's not quick & most won't wait for results. If you could be certain that the stud was a grade 8 steel then brute force would win out, but unless it was replaced at some point after the factory I'd bet that's a "butter bolt" stud...just saying. Small diameter ease outs are hard but snap easily wear eye protection if attempting cause those fragment like a small grenade. A a high grade left twist drill can be used more effectively as an ease out than the EZ- outs & are not quite as likely to snap ...drill outs can be difficult even when mounted on a vertical mill...home shop drill press not so good. Good news is if the stud snaps under moderate pressure it's really soft and will easily drill out, even at home.
Best advice don't twist it off, lol. Rick C.
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The kind of luck I've been having with this motor , I'm thinking I'll leave well enough alone and leave the studs be . I'll toss the insulator in the 'ideas that didn't work out bin' and try something else . Maybe see if the manifold gasket surface can be built up a bit to add some strength and to help curb warping . Maybe just double up on the manifold gasket .
How thick are the OEM mounting 'tabs' on the exhaust manifold ?
I've trued the gasket surface , but I'm wondering if the tabs are too thin ?
Pete . :)
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Right before you gave up on the studs (probably the safest thing to do) I was about to offer an old trade secret that is so phenomenal I have had to kill (at least maim) anyone who repeated it!
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Right before you gave up on the studs (probably the safest thing to do) I was about to offer an old trade secret that is so phenomenal I have had to kill (at least maim) anyone who repeated it!
Send it to a machine shop? LOL
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Does the "secret" involve applying powdered Liquid nitrogen, mixed with 50% unobtainium on the stud with a chicken foot? LOL.
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Thanks anyway , Tom .
I'm in sorry enough shape . I don't need any maiming anytime soon . At least I don't think I do . :o
Rick ,
I'm taking the crank case to a shop anyway , as I've found what may be a crack . I obviously missed it and don't recall ever seeing it before . It runs about 1/2" from the front corner of the control cable mounting block , slightly forward and up toward the right front cylinder mount bolt .
I'm not positive that it is a crack , but I'm having it welded , just to be sure . Unless there's a good reason I should do something different . If so , please tell me .
There's also a crack in the right rear case mount rib that has to be welded , too .
Pete . :)
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Where as aluminum can be dangerous with a torch (because it doesn't change colors and can melt before your very eyes!) heating the stud quite often is the answer. Jamming two nuts on it is perfect if needing to re-use the stud. So once this is done find some paraffin wax. I get mine in the canning section at the grocery store(gulf wax). Heat the stud up so much that when you touch the wax to it it flashes to a vapor. Not much more then that though. This will let you know the temp is coming down to where you want it to be. Keep touching the wax to the stud until it quits flashing off and just melts. The heat of the stud is now perfect and the wax can flow down into the threads to help lubricate the stud to screw out. At times more than one go at it is necessary but quite often proves successful. And remember...patience is still a virtue so if you get frustrated just walk away for awhile. Sometimes cooling all the way down and heating back up does the trick too. Just my 30 year tenure chasing busted manifold studs out in my automotive life!
Carryall..where do you get your chicken feet from!?
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Pete, post a picture of the suspected crack.
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prescription from my new HMO witchdoctor. I think Obamacare can hook you up too?
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Here are a couple pics of the 'crack' . Not as precise as I'd like them , but :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/4edis86zt/HPIM0032_zpsutwagxuy.jpg)
(https://s26.postimg.cc/on0wdy6ax/HPIM0033_zpsom4zvgrj.jpg)
Basically , all that's visible is a shiny line .
Pete . :)
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Yeah, hard to tell if that is a crack or not. Can they magna flux that?
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hasto be magnetic to magna-flux. There was a process that was mediocre at best but used a penetrating fluid that lit up via a blacklight. Maybe could make up some plates to pressure test crank case. Looks superficial tho. Maybe take some clear acrylic seal like the ladies use to tier nails up. And paint them closed to make sure if you don't test. I like to drill and tap for tiny screw at end of crack to stop it ten seal. If you know a good aluminum tigger thats a plus. What does it look like on the inside?
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A couple other unconventional methods I've used before are...Honey. Because of it's specific gravity, it will penetrate cracks/seams that water wont. Also, I've used a small suction cup (kids dart gun, valve lapping tool, etc.) and see if it holds suction. Because of the radius, and the slightly rough surface, a tiny amount of Vaseline on the edge of the suction cup MIGHT work. Just a thought?
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I can't really see the imperfection in this pic ( 3 years ago ) , even after I blow it up . Unless I use my imagination .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/ezwvxbjvt/HPIM1626.jpg)
I'll have to finish tearing the motor apart to get a better look inside , but I do see what looks like casting 'snakes' ( those little raised squiggles on some old aluminum castings ) . I suppose that's what is visible on the outside , too , but ???
There's actually a double radius : front to back and from the corner of the mount block where the line seems to originate .
Not sure I could get a cup to hold . It would have to be a pretty small cup .
Pete . :)
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I see what ya mean. Well...I hate to say it but... Ya might just have to put your lips on it and....suck on it? LOL. Please post pics, if you would? LOL
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Ha . That would be a sight . :o
Pete . :)
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Oh c'mon, we've all done it... distributor vacuum advances and supply lines, EGR valves, fuel petcocks, (that one just don't sound right) etc...as long as you don't do it for money, it's O.K.
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BTDT , But , NEVER a Simplex crank case . LOL
I'm sure that I've bounced a choice word or two off it , but ...
Anyway , I'm working on cleaning stuff and I looked into the exhaust port from the front of the cylinder . Something seemed a bit odd . I slipped the piston in and brought it's dome exhaust edge to the bottom of the ports . The ports are not level . One is a couple MM below the other . That goes for the transfer ports as well , due to the fact that transfer and exhaust ports are drilled in the same stroke , from the exhaust side .
As for what I thought might be a crack , I'm leaning real hard toward it being a casting 'snake' . I found no corresponding crack or snake on the inside of the case . I found the other snakes I'd mentioned before .
Pete . :)
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I wonder if those uneven ports would be negatively affecting the scavenging of air flow then? Do you think "that" could be a/the contributing factor to your seizing possibly???
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In my thinking , the uneven ports have to create a different flow pattern . I'm not sure if that's good or bad in this case , but , I know it most likely was not the original design . That different flow pattern might contribute to excessive heat , which would help warp things like pistons and exhaust manifolds .
Every motor and every mechanical drawing I've ever seen has 'like' ports even .
Port position is the key to port timing , just like intake and exhaust valves in a 4 stroke . Get those wrong and the motor will suffer performance , if it runs at all .
I think I have some 'clean up' work ahead . Fortunately , I have 'reworked' 2 stroke porting in a couple motors and had excellent results . So , the work is not totally strange . I don't intend on changing things very much . Just enough to hopefully gain OEM intent with better/smoother flow .
Pete . :)
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Those slots may help aid lubrication, but I think they where put in to keep the piston from seizing when it got hot. Wayne's replacement, as well as the ones that used to be available from Bob Kerr, had no slots.
Rick
(https://s26.postimg.cc/y3yxlrujt/HPIM1564.jpg)
In researching port timing and piston skirts I came across :
"Fitting pistons into the cylinder properly is very important. Because metal expands when heated, space must be provided for lubricants between the pistons and the cylinder walls. Pistons must have features built into them to control expansion. Without these features, pistons would fit loosely in the cylinders when cold, and then bind in the cylinders, as they are warmed up. This is the problem with aluminum because it expands so much. The pistons (fig. 3-25) may be designed with the following features to control expansion:
It is obvious that the crown of the piston gets hotter than the rest of the piston. To prevent it from expanding to a larger size than the rest of the piston, it is machined to a diameter that is approximately 0.03 to 0.04 of an inch smaller than the skirt area.
One way to control expansion in the skirt area is to cut a slot up the side of the skirt. As a split-skirt piston warms up, the split merely closes, thereby keeping the skirt from expanding outward and binding the piston in the cylinder.
Another variation of the split-skirt piston is the T-slot piston. The T-slot piston is similar to the split-skirt piston with the addition of a horizontal slot that retards heat transfer from the piston head to the piston skirt.
Some aluminum pistons have steel braces cast into them to control expansion.
The skirt, or bottom part, of the piston runs much cooler than the top; therefore, it does not require as much clearance as the head."
From : http://www.free-ed.net/free-ed/Courses/15%20Transportation/HeavyVehicles/HeavySystemsShow.asp?iNum=0201
Rick nailed it .
It seems the OEM pistons may have been ahead of their time . Unless skirt slotting was common practice in those days . Anyway , now we have conformation , of sorts , and a better understanding .
Pete . :)
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That's a interesting "fix", and although it would help with the uneven heat expansion/seizing issue, and promote better lubrication, it just seems it would weaken the skirt too much, and promote the possibility of those cut areas cracking/breaking off? What's the top RPM a good Servi motor will produce?
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The piston pictured is my OEM piston , replaced by a Wayne piston that has seized way too many times ( for unknown reasons , at this point ) .
I'm tempted to slot the Wayne piston , but I don't know if it is designed for that . I'll likely simply hole the back skirt just to help cooling . Lubrication doesn't seem to be a problem as every time I've torn the motor down the piston lower ( below the rings ) has been wet .
RPMs :
For those interested, I read a Simplex advertisement relating to the Simplex Automatic which lists its design improvements and specifications. It states that the 125cc engine has a 6:1 compression ration and developes 4 hp at 4000 rpms.
Pete . :)
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Pete, I have run Wayne's pistons in 3 motors and know many more motors running them. The piston is not the problem, something else is. Bob Kerr also made pistons, and his didn't have any relief cuts in the skirts either. I would have to think the metallurgy in pistons is far better now than was available in the 1930's, when this was designed. I would bet the thermal expansion of a modern piston is much less than the olden days.
Now that the motor is apart, see if you can measure the clearance between the crank and the case port. If that is too large, the case may need to be sleeved.
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I've been thinking how I can measure that difference , with the tools I have . I think I might be able to get a decent measure , but obviously won't know until I try .
The motor has only 'spit' back through the carb a couple of times , early on and that was barely noticeable , IIRC .
But , I'll give it a shot , if only to know for sure .
Pete . :)
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Check my math , please .
With a machinists dial caliper I measured the depth of the carb throat to the crankshaft ( 1 ). Then removed the crankshaft and measured from the same spot on the carb mount to the deepest part of the rotary bore for the crankshaft ( 2 ) .
After multiple tries and coming up with the same numbers :
1 - 1.960"
2 - 2.947"
And the crank measures .984"
I ended with a .003" clearance .
I think that .003" is right at the service limit .
I'll do a couple chores and remeasure , again .
Like my master craftsman father told me : "Measure twice or thrice and cut but once ."
Pete . :)
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The math checks out.
Probably not the way I would have done it. I would have used a telescoping bore gauge to measure the bore, and a micrometer to measure the crankshaft.
I would think .003 would be well within tolerance.
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Like I said "with the tools I have" ...
Anyway , I went back out and measured the same way again and I just didn't feel good about the slight differences I was reading . I put the caliper away and found my feeler gauges . Put the crank in place ; lined the crank port with the intake port ; inserted a .003" into the crank port and turned the crank . I felt a little tension . Then on to .004" , more tension . .005" , the tension felt closer to right . .006" , way too much tension .
So , it seems , with that method , I have .005" vacuum clearance . That's probably a couple hairs out of spec .
I'm not really sure that method would be NASA approved , but ...
Pete . :)
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Holy Cow....you guys have turned this original thread into a novel....if you could bust it up into all the different topics covered in these 40 pages & put them into the categories we already have on this site, new guys would have a heck of a leg up on finding information.
Off the soapbox....PD sorry to hear you've had so many issues.....I can somewhat relate....my bike has sure been a challenge....I've still not messed with it since we got home from Portland.....they say it will stop raining someday so I can tinker with it.....we'll see.....
Mike Sal
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Mike ,
It didn't happen over night . Like fine bourbon , it's aged . :D
Hot and humid between rains , here . Wanna sweat ? Just walk a few steps . They say it'll cool ... Likely the day before we head South .
We just put up with it . Less stress that way . ;)
I hope you can get to yours some day .
Pete . :)
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I just popped the crank bearings out and after they landed on the bench , I looked at that suspect crack . It showed up as very dark and a lot closer to crack looking . I'll have it tigged .
Something I hadn't noticed the last time I had those bearings out was tool marks . Like someone had tried to remove the bearings with the case cold . They aren't real bad and they are located along the outer edges of the intake channel .
Pete . :)
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TIG welding on an Aluminium engine case can sometimes be quite the challenge. I've done it on a couple occasions and remember on one occasion I had to drill small holes at the ends to stop "chasing" the crack, and needing to "V" it out for both decent penetration and in order to clean the oil contaminants from the pores of the casting. Usually the preheating of the area will suffice tho. That would be nice if that ends up being the problem. Fingers crossed for your success!
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Spent a little time cleaning / smoothing passages in the case and the cylinder . Evened the exhaust ports as close as I could get them . The intake ports aren't nearly as far different like the exhaust were . If I had extended grinding 'bits' I would straighten the intakes . But , being as they are pretty close , I'll leave them alone , for now .
Tomorrow I'll see if I can find someone that can tig the 'crack' .
Pete . :)
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Time for new crank bearings . I left the case in the 'oven' too long and the bearings turned blue . :(
One bearing just fell out , like normal , but the other must have gotten a smidgen cockeyed and I had to 'help' it escape .
Always something . Can only blame myself .
I hate when that happens .
Pete . :)
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Opinions Please :
Advantages or Disadvantages of having sealed bearings on the crankshaft , both main and right side bearings .
It seems that there would be a little less bottom end volume if the bearings were to be left sealed .
I don't think having sealed bearings would change intake much , but maybe a bit more vacuum ???
I'd still run the crank seal if that bearing were to be sealed . Maybe that would increase the overall sealing 'properties' at that end of the crank .
Pete . :)
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More than a month has passed and not a single response to my request . And , a very simple request at that .
At the risk of being the fool , I'll post another request :
How far below the bottom of the exhaust port does your front piston skirt rest at the top of the stroke ?
Does anyone know what that measurement should be ?
TIA .
Pete . :)
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Opinions Please :
Advantages or Disadvantages of having sealed bearings on the crankshaft , both main and right side bearings .
It seems that there would be a little less bottom end volume if the bearings were to be left sealed .
I don't think having sealed bearings would change intake much , but maybe a bit more vacuum ???
I'd still run the crank seal if that bearing were to be sealed . Maybe that would increase the overall sealing 'properties' at that end of the crank .
Pete . :)
I don't think it would make any noticeable difference.
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More than a month has passed and not a single response to my request . And , a very simple request at that .
At the risk of being the fool , I'll post another request :
How far below the bottom of the exhaust port does your front piston skirt rest at the top of the stroke ?
Does anyone know what that measurement should be ?
TIA .
Pete . :)
I have not the slightest idea! Not sure why it would matter?
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Thanks for the response , Rick . :)
The reason I ask about skirt closure of the exhaust port is :
1st - I know my exhaust ports were drilled 'uneven' . That's poor workmanship and could easily have an effect on the swirl pattern of the gases , both entering and exiting the combustion chamber . How much ???
2nd - We know that any 'leak' in the bottom end has dire effects on performance .
So , why wouldn't a not totally closed exhaust port to the bottom end have an effect , at least on fuel transfer ? As soon as the port opens on the up stroke , any vacuum is gone and any pressure has to be re-established .
I'm thinking that's why I can't get the motor to start with the kicker . It turns too slow and not long enough to build fuel transfer pressure . When I use power to start , the motor has to spin about twice as long as with the kicker before it starts , albeit only with the idle set just below transmission engagement . Much lower and it wants to die and I can't get it to smooth out .
Hopefully all that^ makes some sense .
Pete . :)
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Pete, as long as it covers the exhaust port, what difference does it make by how much? Isn't that the question you were asking?
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Agreed , Rick .
'IF' the skirt covers the port , there should be no or very little pressure loss .
My skirt does not fully cover the exhaust port , on one side .
I'm thinking about making a copper base gasket that would allow the cylinder to sit higher and the port to be closed . I'd have lower compression which may not be good , depending on how much .
That copper would have to be thicker than the paper I'm using now , in order to do any good .
Pete . :)
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Pete, I admit that I have never even thought to check for that. Next time I build a motor I will try to remember to check. I have used a longer rod in 2 motors without issue though. I would think if this was a problem, it would show up then. This was with Wayne's piston also.
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I don't normally check that either , Rick .
And , I didn't specifically check it this time . I was checking the top of the ports to be sure they were close enough to even with the top edge of the piston . While running the piston through it's full stroke , I noticed the 'gap' below the skirt .
Maybe I am just lucky enough to have gotten a Monday morning or late Friday afternoon cylinder . :(
The longer rods are .030" longer , if I recall correctly . That's .76 mm . The 'gap' I'm dealing with is a couple of mm , maybe a bit more ? I don't have a good way to measure . Blade type feeler gauges just won't work .
The fact that a longer rod can be used and still perform correctly tells me that the skirt must overlap the bottom of the exhaust port by a bit more than .030" in order to 'seal' .
Anyway , I'll be adding that check to my list of checks on 2 stroke motors .
Pete . :)
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This morning , I wrapped my piston with waxed paper and inserted it into the cylinder . A couple of thicknesses of waxed paper makes for a real tight fit .
Then I applied a couple of decent sized 'dabs' of JB Weld to the lower portions of the exhaust ports . I'd prepped the ports for this yesterday by cleaning and scoring any surface that would have JB Weld applied .
After letting the JB set up to a state not fully cured , I worked it down to were the ports would be totally closed when the piston is dead stopped at the top of the cylinder . That will insure enough skirt coverage for a decent seal of the ports at the top of a normal stroke , by at least .030" .
I'd trued the base gasket surfaces previously , so the extra coverage by the JB should be adequate .
I'll leave the JB alone for a day to get a full cure before a light hone and re-assembly of the motor .
Pete . :)
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You are braver than I am. I would not be that confident that the JB weld will hold up to the heat cycles and could break off with disastrous results. I hope I am wrong. Good luck!
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I thought about that , Rick .
I figure if the JB doesn't hold , most , if not all , will blow out the exhaust pipe .
The cylinder seems useless without a fix and the JB will at least prove me right or wrong .
The piston has seized so many times , it should be replaced simply out of principle . So that wouldn't be a huge loss . I might do that anyway , if the JB does what I think it will .
To be honest , I'm obviously willing to try just about anything to get this motor to run decent . I've tried what seems to be everything else , so ...
And , thanks for the good luck . ;)
Pete . :)
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Years ago I tried using JB on a little .25cal. handgun slide to build up a front sight blade. Couple shots and it disappeared/fell off, even after notching and grinding for a "grip" to the parent metal. (I ended up using silver solder instead) Good luck tho!
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Thanks , Paul . :)
I'm not a fan of using JB where it has to contain fuel , but something like an exhaust port should work , hopefully .
Pete . :)
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Could you build up the piston using a TIG welder perhaps?
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I thought about that , too and I'd think that's possible . Lengthen the skirt a bit . It would have to clear the crank counter weight and hopefully not be heavy enough to over weigh the intake side .
That might have to be my next step , if the JB doesn't perform well .
Pete . :)
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Motor is back together . So far , no joy . It seems to run pretty close to the same as it did prior to this latest 'adjustment' .
I installed the MT48 carb I had on before the Carpenter carb . The motor does seem to run better , but still not 'kickable start' better .
So , the hunt continues ... I'm not sure just which bush to shake next .
Pete . :)
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Anything "shoot out" the exhaust pipe? (i.e the JB weld hold up)
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Nothing that I noticed . And I heard no 'strange' noises either .
I let the motor cool completely between run times and nothing unusual , so far .
Next time I pull the exhaust and or cylinder , I'll definitely inspect the JB Weld .
Pete . :)
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Unless someone can offer a bit of magic , I'm pretty much out of time for tinkering with the '57 for a while .
We plan to be Southward bound by this time next weekend . That means packing tools and such . Loading the trailer , after I install new wheels which are patiently waiting . I went up a size and a load rating on the new tires to see if maybe I could get a few more miles before the next replacement .
Anyway , A bunch of things will be happening in the next week to accomplish our goal . Cold weather is on the way and we don't like cold too much anymore . ;)
Pete . :)
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Here's a less than complete list of what I've done to my '57 Simplex motor :
New ignition coil .
Replaced the points and condenser .
Rewound the headlight coil , successfully .
Indexed the spark plug . Not sure it helped . Maybe if the motor ever gets to running right .
Trued carb mating surfaces .
Eliminated the holes in the intake passage ( Throat ) using JB Weld .
Tapered the intake throat from carb mount to the crank port . It's now cone shaped instead of stepped and roughly bored .
New Carpenter Carb . Could not get it to function 'nicely'.
Reinstalled my MT48 carb , which seems to allow the motor to run more mormally .
Had Wayne bore the cylinder to 1st over , which siezed after less than 15 minutes run time . And , siezed a number of times after the piston and bore had been 'cleaned' .
Pinned the piston rings . No more ring drift with ring ends traversing any ports .
New connecting rod and lower bearing .
New crank seal , 1st was stock size . 2nd is 29 mm ID ( much better sealing ).
New Nachi sealed bearings installed on the crank .
Crank to case intake clearance lowered by at least 2 thousandths by applying JB Weld to the inside case 'wall'.
Extended the exhaust mainfold mating surface with JB Weld and trued it and the exhaust port mating surface .
Trued case and cylinder base gasket surfaces .
Trued case compression plate mating surface .
Numerous new gaskets , all around .
Leveled the tops of the exhaust ports because they were factory drilled uneven .
Raised the bottoms of the exhaust ports with JB Weld to compensate for too low of port opening , which allowed the bottom end to open on every stroke .
Come to think of it , maybe not even magic would help . But , I'm willing to give it a shot . ;)
Pete . :)
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Pete, by any chance did you replace the cam for the points? I know the Wico and Phelon used different ones. Any chance you have the incorrect one?
Piston seizing is obviously caused by either lack of lubrication or too high running temperature. If the timing is off, this could cause high running temps as well as hard starting.
Just thinking out loud!
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Rick , Thanks for the thoughts . :)
As far as I know , the cam that's in there is the original . I can't be sure that a PO didn't switch it , but , it's the same one that was in there when I bought the bike 52 years ago .
The piston skirt has always been well lubricated , every time I've removed the cylinder / piston . And , every time there has been fuel running out the compression side as soon as the plate is loosened . A bit less recently , but still .
The motor would kick start after I put it together a few years ago . And , it kick started when I installed the new piston and bore from Wayne . Maybe it's time for another piston with a bit less skirt clearance .
Currently , the motor has about 85 pounds compression and about .008" skirt clearance . IIRC , the factory piston clearance was .004" .
I'll have to remember to check exactly when the motor fires . Something I haven't done , yet . I just taken for granted that the cam is correct .
Pete . :)
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Rick ,
I'm wondering if there is a difference between the Phelon points cam and the Wico points cam .
Would you or any other member happen to have pics of both for comparison ? Maybe one member with a Phelon cam and another with with a Wico cam ? Please post pics of both , if at all possible . That would definitely add to the knowledge base of the site .
Looking at different pics of either system , the cam lobe position seems to be very close , if not identical
, in both systems . True , the points are positioned opposite in each system , but the cam rider ( or tang ) on both points looks like it might hit the high point of the cam at the same point in crank rotation .
I just can't imagine that there would be a difference , without a difference elsewhere in the motor . And , I wouldn't think that the factory would redesign the motor when they switched ignition systems . Maybe I'm over thinking this , but ...
Pete . :)
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Pete, here is a picture of a Wico cam. I positioned the high point at 12:00, so we can see the index of the key tang, which is 7:15 or so. I do not have a Phelon available to take a picture. If someone does, please take the photo in the same orientation.
Simplex list a different part number for each. Wico is 1245, Phelon 2462.
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Here is the point cam I just removed from my motor with a Phelon magneto :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/v4jsxggo9/HPIM0040_zpsv0a2wxs5.jpg)
And , a shot of the Phelon part # F2529 with a directional arrow
:(https://s26.postimg.cc/47ztp4xux/HPIM0041_zpsjjplrgzx.jpg)
The Wico and Phelon cams are definitely different . Obviously to accommodate the different placing of the points .
Documents on this page verify that I have the correct cam : http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=446.0 .
Pete . :)
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While removing the flywheel to access the points cam , I heard some scrapping .
One of the magnets had once again decided to look for a better home . :(
I've tried a few different glues >Gorilla glue ; super glue ; an off brand super type glue , and I'm currently 'testing' a super glue contact adhesive for metals and such .
Hopefully this will be the last time . The previous glues all were a hard , almost brittle type of full cure . This contact adhesive is suppose to remain 'flexible' . Maybe that flex will be enough cushion and hold .
Pete . :)
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Pete, do all the magnets have good magnetism? I have a phelon flywheel on my shelf that had one of the magnets brazed back on and is weak. According to Wayne, you only need 2 magnets to run, the other 2 help power up the lights.
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Rick ,
From what I recall , all the magnets seem to have pretty much the same 'pull' .
I've thought about the need for opposing magnets and the only real explanation I came up with was Balance .
All the modern small motors like Briggs or Tecumseh have only one magnet in the flywheel .
I'm sure the added magnets would help the lighting system , doubling the 'juice' . And , I wonder if the extra magnets are the cause for the Nova ll not seeming to work .
I'll check the amount of magnetism on each magnet in the morning .
Pete . :)
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According to my extremely scientific measurement method of holding a wrench close to each magnet , they all seem to have very close to the same magnetism .
The new contact adhesive I used on the wandering magnet was holding firmly as I re-installed the flywheel . Time will tell if it's any better than what I've tried before .
Pete . :)
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Next time try using various or mulltiple pieces of cardboard between the magnet and a ball bearing to check.
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Maybe I should just get a gaussmeter .
Or maybe a magnetometer .
Or cardboard and little steel balls . ;)
Pete . :)
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The magnetometer is the best choice BUT everyone likes playing with ball bearings and magnets right? My refrigerator doors full of them, and grandkids artwork. LOL (I even have some really strong "magnetic ball bearings" you need to roll to the edge just to get them off)
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Neo balls ? :D
Pete . :)
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The '57 is neatly tied down to the trailer .
We've stuffed a couple hundred miles under our tires . Enough for one day . I'm typing this in a COE park in Southern Illinois .
We were a bit surprised and lucky . This park is now full . We were the last 'campers' . 108 sites and we were lucky enough to take the last one . It even has a decent view of a treed , open grassy area across the drive . We'll only be here a couple days before visiting another campground we like , just an hour and a half South .
Pete . :)
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This past Summer , while working on the '57 , I was fouling spark plugs .
I'd been using the NGK B4H plugs . Good plugs , but I just ran them through too many foulings .
Anyway , I needed plugs and I didn't want to wait for a delivery . I researched and found that Autolite has a plug of the same build and heat range . They are Autolite AP 425 . I called around and no one had any in stock . Orielly's could and did have them the next morning for me .
I've been running them about half the Summer with good results . They clean nicely after a fouling using brake cleaner .
While I'm on spark plugs , I'll note that protruded tip plugs do not work well . They rest too deep and get closed by the piston dome . I had to try and that's what I found .
Has anyone else found plugs that work well in our motors ? If so , please post the particulars .
Pete . :)
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Hi Pete, remember this thread?
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=751.0
I am building a new bike and have a set of NGK B4H that are going in. That is the last set I have in stock, so I am going to order some more, and some Autolite 295 to compare. One of our members claimed the Autolite 295 is the updated number for the plug that came stock on the model M motors. The blue bike I sold over the summer had the same Champion J8c in it for at least the last 3 years, and as you saw in Portland, usually started in 1 or 2 kicks.
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Rick ,
Of course I remember that thread , now that you were so kind as to 'remind' me of it . :)
Seriously , I had forgotten and didn't even do a search . My , um , excuse is that it was late and my mind must have been starting to shut down for the night . :D
I've been doing a bit more research and have found that the Autolite AP425 is actually a couple steps cooler than the NGK B4H . Even so , they seem to perform nicely and fouling is no more than the B4H .
I also found a cross reference site that seems comprehensive : http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com/
I'm jealous , Rick . 2 kicks .
Pete . :)
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Hi Pete, remember this thread?
http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=751.0
I am building a new bike and have a set of NGK B4H that are going in. That is the last set I have in stock, so I am going to order some more, and some Autolite 295 to compare. One of our members claimed the Autolite 295 is the updated number for the plug that came stock on the model M motors. The blue bike I sold over the summer had the same Champion J8c in it for at least the last 3 years, and as you saw in Portland, usually started in 1 or 2 kicks.
Seems I've been running a 1/2" reach B4H & Autolite 425 when I should have been using a 3/8" reach plug ( Autolite 295 ) , according to rldebuse ( http://www.simplexservi-cycle.com/index.php?topic=751.0 ) .
Rick ,
The J8C plug is also a 3/8" reach .
The NGK B4 ( no H ) is also a 3/8" reach .
Pete . :)
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I've been wondering if the missing fins could be causing an over heating problem .
(https://s26.postimg.cc/lrnb068vd/HPIM1627.jpg)
I'm thinking that maybe a reworked CPU heat sink might help cool things down .
I'd need to use longer reach plugs to accommodate the thickness of the sink base plate .
The plugs would hold the sink in place .
Here's a quick drawing to help visualize :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/i6wj1ln55/b6ba98c4-af00-4eba-807d-77736285e9de_zps7jhtmv1a.png)
What do you guys think ? Am I dreaming or am I totally off my rocker ?
Pete . :)
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I would make some aluminum fins and Tig weld them on.
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Rick ,
'New' fins would be the best .
The heat sink would be a test as to whether or not any cooling would prove effective enough to help avoid overheating .
Pete . :)
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I can't remember if I asked, but what was your head temperature?
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Depends on if I've drank enough water and am in the sun or ... Oh , you mean the bikes head temp . :D
I really don't know , other than I won't touch it after it's run for a minute or so . It does seem to be too hot . That from my years of tinkering with small motors . I should pick up an infrared laser thermometer .
What is the 'average' head temp of these motors ?
Pete . :)
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I don't know what average is, but I have seen anywhere from 280-350 on my motors. I remember Jim Lokai was checking some at Portland one year, and some were up around 400, if I remember correctly.
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Hmm , mine is likely somewhere in the upper reaches .
It seems to me that a cooler running motor should last longer , but I suppose that has to do with design .
Was it the usual hot in Portland when the 400° temps were read?
When I get back up north , I'll have to test the heat sink idea and find out what , if any , difference .
Pete . :)
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I haven't taken any heat readings yet , as I still don't have a laser thermometer .
There was not a cpu heat sink to be found in town , so , I had a few fins left from a heat sink project last Summer .
A bit of reshaping and a few holes drilled and I have a goofy looking spark plug heat sink :
(https://s26.postimg.cc/re5bg4161/Spark_plug_heat_sink_1.jpg)
That should be good enough to test for heat variance .
On another note , I went to clean my sediment bowl and found the gasket I bought from Wayne , a couple years ago , had fallen apart . I mean it was nothing but globs of goo . I should have taken a picture , but , really there wasn't much left of the gasket .
I replaced that^ gasket with a 1 1/2" O.D. union joint gasket I found at Ace hardware ( 49 cents and a perfect fit ) . I think is neoprene , but not sure . So far , not a leak to be found .
Just speculating , maybe the ethanol fuel had something to do with disintegrating Wayne's gasket ???
And , if you hadn't noticed , take a look at the effects of Rockport , Texas salt air . That spark plug was installed new last fall and check all the aluminum surfaces . There wasn't any corrosion on that motor before . I'm thinking about treating the motor with some kind of corrosion inhibitor . Anyone have experience with that stuff ?
Pete . :)
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Back when I was at NAPA (N0AutoPartsAvailible) I really liked this stuff. Wasn't much for degreasing but it did do what it is called. Not sure about the corrosion you have going on in relationship to this product but I had good luck with it. Sometimes I didn't always want to sandblast an item because it tended to open up the pores of the metal and invite further corrosion. Thus making one want to paint it with a sealer of some kind. Haven't tried this product again in years and could only assume it works the same as I just found it again and want to try it for myself.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?text=aluminum+brightener
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Just remembered using it on aluminum fins like a radiator or A/C unit. Worked fabulous and suppose it helped to get the most efficiency for cooling.
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Thanks for that^ , Tom .
I'll pick some up and give it a shot . Hopefully it'll WOW me . ;)
Pete . :)
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I'm picking up on the back end of the thread so I may not have all the details but have you thought about electrolysis for rust removal? You'd have to take your engine apart to do it but you could follow up with a zinc plating and I'm betting it would look new. Also you wouldn't have to worry about some weird heat retention effect from the coating.
You can do this all in your garage with a little experimenting to make sure your settings and solutions are correct.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxq4rmzfxac (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxq4rmzfxac)
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I'm picking up on the back end of the thread so I may not have all the details but have you thought about electrolysis for rust removal? You'd have to take your engine apart to do it but you could follow up with a zinc plating and I'm betting it would look new. Also you wouldn't have to worry about some weird heat retention effect from the coating.
You can do this all in your garage with a little experimenting to make sure your settings and solutions are correct.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxq4rmzfxac (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxq4rmzfxac)
Thanks for the suggestion . Yes , I have thought about electrolysis for treating rust . But , I like wood bleach ( Oxalic Acid ) better . I'd link to an excerpt , but because I used photobucket , the pics do not show .
I hadn't thought of plating . It seems simple enough .
I think a zinc coat could be a good idea . I'll have to play around with that .
A possible problem might be sealing the milled surfaces that should be kept the same .
Pete . :)
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You can use hot galv sticks too. You heat up the material with a torch, rub the galvanized stick on it and then use a wire welding brush to spread it around. It only adds approx. .001mil to the surface.
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You can use hot galv sticks too. You heat up the material with a torch, rub the galvanized stick on it and then use a wire welding brush to spread it around. It only adds approx. .001mil to the surface.
Paul ,
That sounds too much like work . ;)
I like the electroplate idea better . At least , it sounds easier . Not sure which is more durable .
And , it just so happens that I already have what's needed for plating on hand .
Pete . :)
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I intend on plating all the bits and parts with zinc when the time comes. They should effectively look new after they are done. Assuming I don't screw it up.
As far as not plating the milled surfaces I imagine a rubber ball and some corks would keep water out of the head. On the flat surfaces I wonder if tape would keep it from plating? I honestly don't know.
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I'm sure there are ways ...
That's why I said I'll have to play around ( experiment ) .
Depending on the clearances , a coating of zinc might not hurt the cylinder . If I'm not mistaken , gasoline use to contain zinc . And , smoothing the transfer port walls probably wouldn't hurt much , either .
Pete . :)
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The zinc will burn off in a cylinder. The melting point is approx. 410 F. It becomes white and brittle and will then flake off. Zinc-nickel would be ideal but, the process uses cyanide bath and is dangerous and difficult because of the narrow heat range as applied. (I've some experience in metallurgy and plating from my trade)
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The zinc will burn off in a cylinder. The melting point is approx. 410 F. It becomes white and brittle and will then flake off.
So , maybe filling the cylinder with a balloon might be a good idea ?
Pete . :)
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Oddly enough, some common products will help. Liquid nails is what we filled tapped holes with before dipping into a commercial galvanizing tank to prevent it from entering.
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If Zinc burns off at 410, that should hold up on a Simplex cylinder, as they usually don't get that hot.
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The zinc will burn off in a cylinder. The melting point is approx. 410 F. It becomes white and brittle and will then flake off.
So , maybe filling the cylinder with a balloon might be a good idea ?
Pete . :)
Thinking a bit more , any zinc in the upper cylinder , think combustion chamber , would simply burn away and out the exhaust .
Any zinc on the lower part of the cylinder would/should never reach 400° and thereby stay attached ( until it wore off ) and act as a lubricant , like it did back in the day .
That seems to make sense .
Pete . :)
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I guess you could just paint the surfaces you didn't want to plate. Once you are done plating you can just hit those surfaces with paint stripper. Paint stripper shouldn't touch the plating.
For a cylinder a plumbers plug in the bottom and a couple of corks should do it. I can't imagine there is enough hydrostatic head to make the water breach those seals.
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I wonder if tape would stay in place long enough to protect a surface .
Pete . :)
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Don't think you'd want the residue and pieces of zinc messing with the cylinder walls and possibly scoring them for ring seating. It's not as soft as lead contained in the "old type"gasoline.
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You might have a point , Paul .
Maybe best on the cautious side .
Pete . :)
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You might have a point , Paul .
Maybe best on the cautious side .
Pete . :)
Pete, quick worrying about this bs, and get that thing running! Lol
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Ha . No worries here , Rick .
Just considering options while I have the jug off to replace the base gasket .
Pete . :)
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This morning , I wrapped my piston with waxed paper and inserted it into the cylinder . A couple of thicknesses of waxed paper makes for a real tight fit .
Then I applied a couple of decent sized 'dabs' of JB Weld to the lower portions of the exhaust ports . I'd prepped the ports for this yesterday by cleaning and scoring any surface that would have JB Weld applied .
After letting the JB set up to a state not fully cured , I worked it down to were the ports would be totally closed when the piston is dead stopped at the top of the cylinder . That will insure enough skirt coverage for a decent seal of the ports at the top of a normal stroke , by at least .030" .
I'd trued the base gasket surfaces previously , so the extra coverage by the JB should be adequate .
I'll leave the JB alone for a day to get a full cure before a light hone and re-assembly of the motor .
Pete . :)
Here's a follow up to the above experiment :
While I had the cylinder off to replace a base gasket , I checked the exhaust ports for the condition of the JB Weld I'd 'installed' .
The majority of the JB Weld has been blown out . What was left seemed less than brittle , but there wasn't enough left to do much , if any , good . I simply smoothed the leftovers and reset the cylinder .
To be honest , I'm not sure the original buildup did any good . Hard to tell just how long the JB Weld stayed where it was put .
The motor acts much the same as before . That being it starts using the drill but not the kicker .
Pete . :)
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Ha . You guys are way too nice .
Not a single 'I told ya so' . ;)
I'da done it anyway . Just to prove to myself , by my own means .
Pete . :)
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Ha . You guys are way too nice .
Not a single 'I told ya so' . ;)
I'da done it anyway . Just to prove to myself , by my own means .
Pete . :)
Pete, no reason to beat a dead horse! LOL
I wonder if the flywheel is the issue. I know you reattached a magnet or two.
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Ha . You guys are way too nice .
Not a single 'I told ya so' . ;)
I'da done it anyway . Just to prove to myself , by my own means .
Pete . :)
Pete, no reason to beat a dead horse! LOL
I wonder if the flywheel is the issue. I know you reattached a magnet or two.
Rick ,
I did re-glue a magnet ( the same one ) , twice . Both times the original location was very evident and easy to place the magnet . I don't think that's an issue , as the spark is fairly strong and consistent .
The strength of the magnets as a whole might be suspicious . I now that sparks can act differently in open air than under compression . But , once the motor starts , it runs pretty smooth and only dies when I play with the carb settings .
On another bike forum , there's a saying that gets repeated occasionally : " 90% of carb problems are electrical" .
It would be nice to be able to tell if that^ is the case , here .
And , as for dead horses , I think this one is verified dead . LOL
Pete . :)
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Just "spit-balling" but, are there any welch plugs on the rotary carb? Is it possible that there's a leak or an obstruction in a passage associated with one of them?
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Good Morning Paul ,
Yes , there is a welch plug in the idle circuit . I've wondered whether or not there's crap built up under it . Most likely there is , but , when I spray brake cleaner through that circuit the cleaner sprays out the two idle hols in the carb throat . So , at least , some fuel must be getting through . Brake cleaner is thinner than gasoline / mix .
I suppose I should just pull the plug and be sure that it's as clean as possible . I have tried everything else , it seems .
Pete . :)
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Only reason I suspect the carb is that you said it runs and idles but won't start without spinning it with the drill. That might/could point to the low speed/idle circuit and/or fuel mixture problem and I've had a leak in a welch plug in the past. It ended up forming a "gunk" all over the inside of that passage way. Just a guess. Have you tried starting it with a known "good carb" on it before by chance?
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A known good carb ?
I paid a hundred bucks for a Carpenter carb that doesn't seem as responsive to tuning as the old Tillotson I had and now have on .
To be fair , I'm not 100% , absolutely , positive that there is anything wrong with the Carpenter carb . But , it lays in a parts box .
I'll have to see if I can locate a replacement welch plug for the Tillotson .
Pete . :)
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A known good carb ?
I paid a hundred bucks for a Carpenter carb that doesn't seem as responsive to tuning as the old Tillotson I had and now have on .
To be fair , I'm not 100% , absolutely , positive that there is nothing wrong with the Carpenter carb . But , it lays in a parts box .
I'll have to see if I can locate a replacement welch plug for the Tillotson .
Pete . :)
I have used 4 of the Carpenter carbs with excellent results. I have used them straight out of the box, and I have also drilled the addition holes in the emulsion tube. I didn't find much difference in the way they ran.
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Rick ,
The Carpenter carb I have is likely OK . Just that the motor starts and seems to run better with the Tillotson .
I did try different emulsion tubes , but , like you , found little difference .
Pete . :)
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I went looking for welch plugs and ran into a fellow that use to work on outboard motors . He had a palm sized bag packed with various sizes , left over from years of carb rebuilds .
Anyway he gave me 3 of each size from about 3/16" to 1/2".
I pulled the idle circuit welch plug out of the Tillotson carb on the bike . The area under the plug was clean , no debris other than a couple of aluminum chips from my drilling a hole in the old plug .
I ran wire through the two idle holes in the carb throat to insure they weren't clogged and then sprayed the area with brake cleaner before installing a new plug . As insurance against any possible leaks , after the plug was in place , I applied some clear sealer over the plug and its hole .
I was able to kick start the motor with the drive belt loose to the transmission . Once the motor warmed for a couple seconds , I could engage the transmission and the motor would stay running .
If I leave the transmission engaged , when I kick the motor , there aren't enough revolutions for it to start . And , the engaged revolutions are slower , due to the extra drag .
Pete . :)
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Is this a improvement from before? Would you be able to compensate by raising the idle speed by chance and "freeing up" the transmission resistance somehow? (new/better bearings, clutch belt adjustment, etc.)
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Sound advice on idle and drive train drag, but sounds like you just made huge progress from electric drill start to kick start. It sounds like you've isolated the carb as the problem and can stop chasing buggers elsewhere. Rick C.
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Paul ,
I'm not sure I'd call it improvement as I was at the same point a year ago .
There is a very noticeable difference in idle speed from disengaged to engaged . Engaged idle speed is currently set just below total transmission engagement . In other words , it's set just below the point where the transmission primary drive engages the the transmission main group .
I've tried lowering the idle to no avail .
I installed all new bearings in the transmission assembly when I redid the bike about 4+ years ago . The amount of run time on those bearings has to be minimal .
I am working on something that will , in effect , disengage the transmission . I'll post more on that when I have it worked out .
Rick C ,
I'm not ruling anything out until I can reliably start and ride my bike on a whim . ;)
Pete . :)
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There should be almost no drag from the transmission when under idle condition. Does your transmission drag without the engine running? If so, do you have the correct springs in the trans? Do you have clutch shoe clearance at rest?
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There should be almost no drag from the transmission when under idle condition. Does your transmission drag without the engine running? If so, do you have the correct springs in the trans? Do you have clutch shoe clearance at rest?
Rick ,
It seems the only real amount of drag when the system is cold is the thickness of the 'lube' in the bearings and on the main group sleeve . After the motor and transmission have 'warmed' a bit , starting is easier .
I have the original springs installed on the primary drive shoes and there is plenty of clearance between the shoes and the 'bell' . I've been thinking I'd like to try a stronger set of springs to move engagement to a higher RPM .
I should pull the transmission out and check everything separately to insure no abnormal wear .
Pete . :)
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There should be almost no drag from the transmission when under idle condition. Does your transmission drag without the engine running? If so, do you have the correct springs in the trans? Do you have clutch shoe clearance at rest?
Rick ,
It seems the only real amount of drag when the system is cold is the thickness of the 'lube' in the bearings and on the main group sleeve . After the motor and transmission have 'warmed' a bit , starting is easier .
I have the original springs installed on the primary drive shoes and there is plenty of clearance between the shoes and the 'bell' . I've been thinking I'd like to try a stronger set of springs to move engagement to a higher RPM .
I should pull the transmission out and check everything separately to insure no abnormal wear .
Pete . :)
Check the bushing that the primary rides on. Bob Kerr told me to lube it with a pencil. He says any oil holds grit and makes them bind up. He says a dry lube is the way to go.
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The same dry graphite spray used on the inside of the Comet clutch bell should work. That would be great if that's all it ends up being huh?
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A decent coat of graphite on that sleeve makes good sense .
There's a pretty fair amount of surface contact .
If I recall correctly , I put some anti seize on that sleeve . Anti seize has graphite , but it's pretty thick stuff . So , I can imagine it being a source of drag , if it hasn't worn off .
I think I have some dry graphite , somewhere around here .
It would be nice if there was an easier way to lube that sleeve .
And , if this ends up being the 'cause' , it wouldn't surprise me much , as causes are very often simple .
Pete . :)
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Nice part of the spray on dry graphite lube is the liquid carrier allows it to get into places like bearing surfaces, and between bushings using the straw, and then quickly evaporates, just leaving the graphite itself.
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I was about the tear the transmission out and thought I'd do a finger spin test of the primary drive assembly .
Disengaged : it was turning 1 1/2 or 2 rounds .
I then sprayed a bit of Nano Spray Gold on the 'hub' that the drive rides on . I concentrated on getting as much behind the retention cir-clip as possible , trying not to apply too much . Wiped off any excess and gave the drive another finger spin .
It spun 4 - 5 turns and came to an easy , as opposed to abrupt or assisted , stop . It spun more freely the 2nd and 3rd time .
I engaged the transmission and actually kick started the motor . I'm not sure that wasn't helped by my having ran the motor a while before . I'll try starting it this morning , stone cold , and see what happens .
Nano Spray Gold : Hands down , this is probably the best stuff I have ever used .
Pete . :)
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Is this Nano spray gold high heat resistant? I've used industrial oven chain lube for high speed conveyors that worked well on bearings and bushings also. Hopefully this is the issue that will get you up and running. Good luck, fingers crossed!
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Paul ,
I really don't know if the Nano spray is high heat resistant .
I was able to kick start the bike this morning , after many kicks . It seemed to run fairly decent . So , I took it for a ride , only to have to push it home . It seized , once again . :(
Time for a nap . Maybe my dreams will have a better ending .
Pete . :)
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Could have been worse...
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Could have been worse...
That can almost always be the case , Paul . ;)
And , my nap ... well that didn't happen either . So , no dreams to give a report on .
I can deal with a seizure . I simply don't know what's causing them .
I've sealed everything I can and still it seizes .
I've been burning the same mixture as all our other 2 stroke equipment uses ( they don't seize ) .
I just pulled the spark plug and it has a nice tan color . Not wet and not too light colored .
Pete . :)
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Pete, have you checked the running temperature? I can't remember if you did the oven check.
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Rick ,
I still don't have a laser thermometer .
I should just make a run up to Harbor Freight or maybe Walmart .
As for skirt clearance , it's at .007" or .008" , I don'r recall exactly . Probably too much . I think I read that the factory called for .004" . But , that would be with one of the 'cut' pistons .
Pete . :)
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Pondering seizures and considering that I've sealed everything I can ;
I've been burning the same mixture and having fuel run out of the crankcase when I remove the compression plate ; the spark plug has a nice tan color and the exhaust portion of the piston skirt being the only place seizure takes place , I have to think that just as Rick 'suggests' , heat is the culprit .
So , my options would include : colder spark plug for quicker heat transfer outward ; retard timing and running premium gas with possibly a higher oil mix . Hopefully , all or some combination of those will reduce the operating temperature to a point of no more seizures .
Any and all comments are more than welcome .
Pete . :)
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Pete have you ever had your Simplex engine "4 stroke" at any point in the operating rpm range, idle to say 5,000 rpm? I actually try to induce this wee bit of 4 stroking in my 2 cycle motors for cooling. Running a bit rich at a mid range rpm level that is easy to reach by just a blip of throttle or regress back to by letting off throttle from easy cruising speed. As an arbitrary example let's say 4 stroking begins at 2,500 rpm and continues until it smooths into 2 stroking at 3,500 rpm. The result is a good pull from idle to 2,500 and then a narrow band of 4 stroking is available for cooling, which can be quickly transitioned through to a smooth 2 cycle cruising speed. In my youth I ran Bultacos & quickly learned 2 cycle tricks, which aren't tricks at all but necessities to make antique 2 stroke tech work in desert heat. Keep cool fuel moving in and hot air exiting quickly and most importantly, continually. Keep the revs up, no coasting with a dead throttle, keep revs coming by gearing down on slow stretches. Quite different than operating a 4 stroke, no? Of course the plug doesn't foul as readily either. I actually like my 2 stroke plugs to read a bit rich. Playing the heat range game with plugs along with carb adjustment and timing is also a good way to reduce heat.
Have you changed compression by truing the head or cylinder deck or both, if so a thicker gasket can be employed to lower compression and heat.
Use of too thin a base gasket can also alter compression.
Finally timing. Advance is good at lower rpm's on a 2 or 4 stroke, but the 2 strokes actually run better and cooler with retard at higher rpms. Many street & racing CDI units are designed with this in mind. Perform better and live longer. Motors like the Simplex shouldn't require much advance to perform well.
Premium (no corn fuel ) won't hurt the motor & is quick to check out. Usually if the motor isn't detonating, pinging the gas is fine. I break in with semi synthetic Lucas 2 cycle oil at 40:1 then switch to 20:1 when they start coming to life. Older engines might require a higher ratio. I believe the new ash free synthetic 2 stroke oils are a key factor in my engines running so long and are more than woth their cost.
Case inducted motors are normally considered to cool better than piston port engines and are more efficient. Since the piston skirt is seizing I'll mention 2 things that I've not covered. Trimming the piston skirt and/or thoughtful drilling of the piston body with small holes to allow the cooling fuel mix to lubricate and cool the cylinder wall continually through the interior of the piston. Drilling is quite common as is trimming of the two I prefer drilling.
Racing motors of the dry sump 4 stroke variety, which run on & are lubricated by fuel oil mix and some operate continually at 12,000 plus rpm.
Exhaust heat buildup can also add significantly to piston,cylinder and head temps. You wouldn't believe the number of cat converters and mufflers that are plugged up though "almost new" ....might run pretty good but be generating internal heat.
I also can't help but believe that heat is at the root of your motors problem with seizing. Without miking the rotating parts and checking the bore and clearances, all of which create friction and heat, I'd be at a loss at this point for another cause.
I'd suggest acquiring a good laser temp and record both head and cylinder temps at various locations.
Just a few observations and generalizations on 2 strokes in general, not Simplex specific. Have fun, Rick C.
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Wow, Rick! I thought maybe he just had a weak seat spring :D
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Wow, Rick! I thought maybe he just had a weak seat spring :D
LOL . I wish that's all it's been . Butt ( get it ? I don't believe I typed that . :D ) , it's more like a weak spring between my ears . ;)
Rick C ,
4 stroking is what I use to find where the motor runs best .
I've tried different compression #s by adding gaskets . Currently , I'm back down to a single gasket .
Timing is pretty much preset , but can be altered by a few degrees via point gap . I have tried running at 29°BTDC rather than the factory recommended 30° . But that didn't seem to make a difference .
I really like running E=0 premium in all the old motors I have . I have a bottle of Lucas 2 Stroke 1/2 used as well as a half bottle of Opti 2 . I've used Stihl oil ... my motor has seized with all of them .
I've never trimmed a skirt , but have drilled some with excellent results . The thought has been pressing as nothing else I've done so far has seemed to help .
I originally had steel wool stuffed at the ends of the muffler can as noise suppression . It worked . I removed it at some point after the first seizure . Even with the 'packing' the exhaust was high flow . Come to think of it , when I removed the wool , I don't remember it being highly carboned or otherwise fouled .
I intend on buying a laser thermometer .
Thanks for the comments . It's always good to rehash . ;)
Pete . :)
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Mostly Cloudy with light rain until this evening .
71.2 °F
No eclipse viewing going on around here .
And , I'm taking the day off from working on the Bike . Maybe ... ;)
Pete . :)
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I just finished re-hosting all my pics in this thread .
Pete . :)
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I just finished re-hosting all my pics in this thread .
Pete . :)
That's why you should have just uploaded them here!
There are so many websites that are now useless, because of off site picture hosting that has changed. I am thinking about deleting threads that no longer make sense without the associated pictures.
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I can see your point , Rick .
I suppose I can still make the switch .
If you , or anyone else , run across any of my posts/threads that need image updates , please bump them or let me know and I'll fix them .
And , eliminating 'clutter' is probably a good idea .
Pete . :)
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I can see your point , Rick .
I suppose I can still make the switch .
If you , or anyone else , run across any of my posts/threads that need image updates , please bump them or let me know and I'll fix them .
And , eliminating 'clutter' is probably a good idea .
Pete . :)
I wanted to see if anyone was going to update their pictures, but it seems unlikely. I follow another forum, and only 1 person there has updated anything either. A lot of the people that posted several years ago do not even come here any longer, so we can count them out.
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I can see your point , Rick .
I suppose I can still make the switch .
If you , or anyone else , run across any of my posts/threads that need image updates , please bump them or let me know and I'll fix them .
And , eliminating 'clutter' is probably a good idea .
Pete . :)
I wanted to see if anyone was going to update their pictures, but it seems unlikely. I follow another forum, and only 1 person there has updated anything either. A lot of the people that posted several years ago do not even come here any longer, so we can count them out.
Maybe if you published a notice on the home page about the 'situation' ( make very noticeable ) . A few might make their posts / threads right .
Pete . :)
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Rick S. I so appreciate the work you do on this site. Posting photos direct here is extremely easy compared to some forums as is navigating...great work! Rick C.
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I've been starting to get things ready for the road , as we'll be heading South West in a few weeks .
I did get a few of the Rockport rusted spots cleaned up on the bike , but , it still needs a lot of work to be decent .
This site has been slow lately . I guess everyone is getting ready for the road . ;)
Pete . :)
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I did a little more cleaning and a bit of paint happened .
The bike starts every time , with the aid if my drill . :(
Once we get 'settled' in Az. for a while , I have Wayne send a new piston and rings to see if I can up the compression .
I'm pretty sure low compression is my main problem and if it isn't , at least, I'll have eliminated that possibility .
I'm getting short on time , as we'll be motoring toward the Mexican border by this time next week .
It's only in the mid 50s today and predicted to be in the mid 30s tonight . BRRR . Too dang cold for my liking , anymore .
Pete . :)
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Heading all the way to the Valley this Winter Pete?
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Heading all the way to the Valley this Winter Pete?
A little farther west . We might even dare set foot inside of California .
My wife's aunt lives in Queen Creek , just outside Phoenix . She has been after us to visit for the last 7 - 8 years .
So , we'll do the Southwestern U.S. until the Spring of '19 . Then head to Michigan for a Summer long visit .
Those are the general plans anyway .
Pete . :)