Author Topic: Simplex 5 speed build  (Read 207470 times)

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #450 on: August 14, 2017, 05:50:15 AM »
Pete & Bob 53 I have not forgotten your interest in the small Chinese bicycle 2 strokes, kit type motors. I've been waiting to relay the most up to date information as well as post some current photos which might prove instructive. I'm back on it and am taking photos as I go.

Again I realize this is a Simplex forum & I don't want to offend any of the members by my sharing of off topic material...please let me know if for any reason my posting offends, for any reason. I really want this forum to thrive & I see some diversity of building and riding experience as a possible route to increased visitor traffic and increased membership. Just a suggestion and not intended in any way as a criticism of primary topic emphasis or to forums very important dedication to documenting, collecting and refurbishing of all things Simplex. I appreciate all you guys. Rick C.

Bob53

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #451 on: August 14, 2017, 07:26:45 AM »
Thanks Rick, I met a guy here in town the other day that also does some of these mods to the china girl engines. He says it make all the difference in the world to these engines. By a bicycle speedometer he claims 50 plus mph. More than I want to do on a bicycle. But the power on hand would be nice. Bob

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #452 on: August 14, 2017, 07:50:06 AM »
I'm not so sure that this is too far off topic , Rick .

After all , with the modifications you suggest , the 'little' Chinese motors might just be enough to power a Simplex . Granted 'some' extra gearing may be required , but ...

And , there's the fact that a lot of what are left of Simplex bikes have been customized/modernized/re-powered with what ever happened to be available .

Pete . :)
Goes around , Comes around . :)

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #453 on: August 14, 2017, 03:55:25 PM »
Thanks for the input guys it is appreciated. I had some deliveries today that I'll share with a bit of explanation. I'm currently working on three of these little motors and not all will be built out alike. Two are short stroke and the other (in the Schwinn has a longer stroke) a couple have 40 mm intake stud spacing the other has 32 mm. Other than that heads are all 8mm studs. One piston fits all, same with the head...rod is not common to all.

I'm not going to make a big deal of which engine gets what because except for the particulars mentioned the mods are similar in nature.

The photos show a piston with a one inch hole centered exactly midway between the bottom of the skirt and the bottom ring. This is the piston "window" for the reed valve setup on the intake side. It looks huge in the photo & is about 3/16" in diameter larger than what I run on my Skyhawk bike. I bought this to compare the two in performance and also the bronze bushing that is oil impregnated...what you see are not empty holes. I'm testing because the roller wrist pin bearing has been a problem for many & when it goes it takes the engine with it.

The Dellorto slide carb is a clone, but a good one...each bike I build gets one. The expansion chamber is also a test & will be tried on two different motors the lightly modified Schwinn setup and the reed valve, which has a bunch of work and miles on my Grubee Skyhawk. The expansion chamber pipe has a major bit of blockage at the flange which will be dealt with.

The   cylinder shows the shape and polish of the intake porting which is matched to the intake or reed valve body & gaskets to improve flow. The exhaust side is not shown but is also ported and contoured to flow. I don't think it necessary to mirror polish either one, but have and seen little or no performance value. A nice finish with three hundred grit is about right.

I'm operating at 1500 feet so a 55 or 60 jet is about right on a modified engine. That is quite capable of doing around 50 mph Bob, but when I add those mods to a reed valve setup with a piston window only a 60 or 65 is used. Adding a third transfer port to the reed valve and piston window setup requires 65 to 75 jet.

I'll go into more details as I do the work. Rick C.

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #454 on: August 15, 2017, 04:07:20 AM »
Pete the clutch in the China girl engine is the weak point. I run a 48 t rear sprocket in my Grubee and it pulls pretty good from dead stop & still run over 40 mph. Going to a 56 t or 58 t with stock primary sprocket and quality chain might just pull the weight of the Simplex and a not huge rider to 35 mph or so. The motor would have to be built up to around 5 hp or more, which is what I would call a mildly modified engine that could survive well if properly built,  ridden and maintained.

Couple of points I neglected to flesh out the piston "window" is 1" in diameter. The wrist pin bushing shown is graphite filled (the black dots) oil lite bronze & is promoted as capable of running oil free without binding...I hope not to test this particular feature.

I cleaned up the exhaust flange yesterday and mounted it on the Schwinn & geez was it loud, ran better, but was dirt bike loud. I'm fabbing a muffler for it and will try it out next on my Grubee Sky Hawk to see where the engine comes on pipe, the Grubee will probably end up as the expansion chambers home, since it's modified engine should benefit most from the pipe at mid range rpm. I'm hoping it will really come up on pipe at a little over 6,000. Even with extensive modifications getting over the "bump" (coming up on cam for a 4 stroke) with these little China 66 cc engines has been tough using the short mufflers, once on the pipe they smooth & scream. This expansion pipe looks to be designed for low to high mid range performance & will probably not improve the top any at all, which is o k with me since that's not where I ride.   Rick C.   

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #455 on: August 15, 2017, 05:29:57 AM »
How much weight difference between a stock Simplex roller and your 'typical' bicycle roller ?

Hopefully , that pipe adds enough 'better' to make it worthwhile . I knew it would be a loud one .  It looks to be not much more than a straight pipe with the tail section being as big as the inlet . I'd have thought the tail would / should be half or less than what it is . But , I'm not a pipe designer , so ...  Still , it looks nice and it's shiny . ;)

Pete . :)
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ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #456 on: August 15, 2017, 02:50:07 PM »
Pete my aluminum Grubee tank in frame bike is about 70 lbs. wet. I'm about 170 to 180, but  I've read posts of real heavy weights loving the authentic Grubee Skyhawk frame and the China girl engine. I'd think the Simplex to be around 150 lbs. ? The GT-5 engine is about 25 lbs. so there is that to consider opposed to the weight of the Servi motor and drive that would be eliminated. If I had a decent frame, fenders & forks, not even a roller, I'd have to consider building a light weight Servi-cycle, as a lark for something to do. I really think I could keep it at around 100 lbs. & that's not too bad if rider weight is under under 250 lbs. Given a choice of power and drive train to build around on a really nice complete roller I'd advise sticking with the small Honda or clone 4 cycle power plant with a 3D manual clutch & electric start, but that's just me being me on two completely different build speculations. I'm not really considering doing either, but then I didn't expect to build the Copper Gator either, lol. 

I swapped the Dellorto carb onto the Schwinn X-celsior this morning and it made a difference, both with the expansion chamber and without. I then installed the stock head with a .4mm copper gasket in place of the .8 mm stock gasket & it also was a noticeable improvement. I then replaced the expansion chamber with a stock muffler & I was so pleased wit the quiet that the expansion is history for the X bike. The gains I made with the carb and higher compression gained with the thin head gasket will be fine. The expansion chamber will be put to test on the Grubee, but with a muffler. You can't possibly believe how loud that little 66 cc motor is when on the pipe. The Gt-5 engine is modified enough to actually perform at the rpm's the pipe was designed for...if the added silencer kills the power at least it will be a quiet death.

Pete you are right in observing length as a factor in 2 stroke pipe design. Ultra short small header quickly going to an oversize chamber, dumping into a relatively short & small diameter outlet...should lead to a high output at elevated rpm, narrow power curve. The pipe I have is really not that, broader power band developed in the low to upper mid range & then going relatively flat on top.    Rick C     
   

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #457 on: August 15, 2017, 06:43:10 PM »
The factory brochures state Simplex bikes weigh 135 pounds . Subtracting the motor and such , the weights might be kinda close .

Agreed , I think one of the smaller Japanese brand motors might fit nicely in a Simplex frame . I'm sure there would be a hot wrench involved for a decent fit and look .
Seems I recall someone did or at least tried that a while back . Might have been you .

.4 mm = .0157" . That's getting thin . 
I ran some head gaskets I cut out of heavy duty aluminum foil on my '72 Kawasaki H1B back in the early 70s , when I was drag racing . They were very thin . ;)

Pete  . :)
Goes around , Comes around . :)

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #458 on: August 16, 2017, 05:31:01 AM »
Pete the .4 mm appears to almost be "foil" & I was super cautious while slipping it over the studs. Side by side the new gasket appeared to be 1/4th the thickness of the original, not half. I'll be watching for any elevated temps while riding, but don't think I'll notice much if any change, the reason being that the piston at TDC isn't. This reduces compression and thus heat. I'd guess this engine now sets at about the same power as a well setup and carefully manufactured stock motor...getting one of those happens, luck of the draw, even from the best manfacturer & dealer/distributor. I like the California compliant kit motors that require light assembly as it saves time tearing down a motor for inspection and really is required for cleanup of transfer ports on both cylinder and case. I've also flushed out metal debris from machining operations as well. There is commonly some casting " flash" & constriction, rough edges and poor matching at the transfers as well as at intake & exhaust ports. Cylinder base gaskets are often too thick to build good compression, my engine base gasket falls into this category and will be replaced with a thinner one. Stock heads typically need some attention, I had 4 unused stock heads on the shelf and 3 of them were not flat requiring a surfacing cut for truing (shaved head which also increses compression). Of the four 3 also had a large casting lump at the edge of the spark plug, creating a hot spot, at the least, in the chamber which is a rough finish at best and all cc'd significantly different volume. Pete it's easy to find ways to build power in these little motors unfortunately. Attention to detail brings them to life. I've used quality CNC heads on my last 7 China girl motors for these reasons plus additional engine cooling and cool look as well. Using a stock head on the Schwinn X-celsior has reminded me of what I learned years ago when stock was what you got, deal with it. Jury is still out; I may switch to an aftermarket head on the Schwinn at some point & have a spare on order.

Even when building an engine with a perfect head, flat and well finished with a consistent combustion chamber volume the cylinder to head fit needs to be near perfect & both top and head gaskets selected that allow a good "squish"  that brings the piston to TDC while completely filling the cylinder without coming in contact with head or plug.

Note that port timing will be altered by either increasing or decreasing the cylinder base gasket thickness. I've experienced no port timing problems going with thinner gaskets only improvement. When building a highly modified China girl I prefer to begin with the thinner base gasket, if piston position at TDC is too low in the cylinder after all truing cuts are completed on jug and head. Shaving the head for a compression increase is my least favorite power builder & my last resort.

Though reed valve case induction is now quite common on the China girl & getting more inexpensive to accomplish with a kit the piston reed port setup is still an excellent choice for most builders. Hard core racers will probably gravitate to case reed induction for max power, but most builders seem to go piston port with the reed for the next power stage level in an easy to tune and live with street engine that has really good performance.

The piston port reed valve (I use the RSE valve with a Dellorto clone carb) used with a piston "window" is necessary to see a nice performance increase with a reed valve. Just bolting on a reed valve will not help a non modified, for reed valve,motor. I tried that on a highly modifed engine (non reed valve mods) & lost speed, with no noticeable improvement at any point in the power range. A piston window is necessary to feel a performance improvement. The piston window also helps cool the motor with the direct straight shot of cool fuel to the interior of the piston and wrist pin. More lubrication at the wrist is a very good thing as is any cooling. Aids in engine life and catastrophic seizure or bearing failure.

Cutting a third transfer port in the cylinder on the intake side really maximizes the use of the reed valve for top to bottom performance improvement and added in combination with previous modifications to head and cylinder, plus the piston window turns the CG engine into a very sporting power plant for light weight bikes. I like performance available on demand, but without drama. I don't want to spend my time tuning. I prefer riding and fabricating in that order, so if it's not dependable or if it's labor intensive I have no use for it. I have built one engine for max power and it was powerful but was all of the above as well & has set on the shelf for several years for a reason. I was a real P.I.T.A. much more trouble than it's worth. Some of the race builders won't sell outside the racing fraternity I'm told because they know it will come back to haunt them. I'm not a vendor nor do I sell what I build, for that reason coupled with the liability issues. I did sell a motor recently to a motorcycle service tech who can flat build tune and ride 'cause I wanted to do him a solid for aiding this old guy from time to time. He refused to accept it for free...great young man.

Just info and observations specific to the Chinese type kit bike variety 2 strokes. Just having fun.  Rick C.

           
   

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #459 on: August 16, 2017, 07:01:16 AM »
Not necessarily specific to China girl kits , Rick .

As I red the above , I was saying "yup ... yup ... that's right ... yup ... I've done that , too" . Only I was working on everything but a Chinese motor . Maybe some of the small yard tool motors were done in China , but , those usually didn't need or even allow much modification .
Although , I've never cut an extra transfer port . Opened and cleaned some , but ...

Pete . :)
Goes around , Comes around . :)

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #460 on: August 16, 2017, 02:24:02 PM »
Yup pretty basic 2 stroke practice, but the lack of quality control in the China kits is the specificity I was referring to. You can't actually expect it was accurately QC'd at the factory & the specifics I mentioned are more to be expected than not. Add to this damage from shipping. I end up checking every fastener before the engine leaves the workbench, and at least eyeballing all parts, check & verify. Most will run right out of the box, but I  still verify. The photos attached show the contrast of quality, the CNC aluminum head is about $60. A complete engine can be purchased delivered for about $70. (short block) or a Franklin with muffler, carb, CDI & muffler.

  Rick C.

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #461 on: August 16, 2017, 03:45:40 PM »
Gee , is there a difference in those heads ? LOL

Amazing what 60 bucks will buy . ;)

Looks like maybe the Chinese missed the QC part when they copied the Japanese .

I recall when I first started looking at scooters , I was strongly advised to stick with Japanese makes and leave the Chinese alone . That  was many years ago . Looks like things haven't changed much .

Pete . :)
Goes around , Comes around . :)

ndian22

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #462 on: August 16, 2017, 05:54:31 PM »
They haven't yet they have Pete. The small Honda motorcycle clone motors, of which I own 3 are excellent in every respect but cost a bit more than these little industrial size weed wacker power plants. I'm amazed at how much fun and enjoyment I've gotten building and riding bikes powered by these tiny, simple 2 stroke power plants, over the last 6 or 7 years enthusiasts have found  ways to make them work well & that's pretty impressive to me.

pd

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #463 on: August 16, 2017, 07:10:48 PM »
Where there's a will ... ;)

Pete . :)
Goes around , Comes around . :)

Bob53

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Re: Simplex 5 speed build
« Reply #464 on: August 17, 2017, 06:48:18 AM »
Rick, which vendor do you use for the nice aftermarket head. It sure looks nice. Bob